Fighting China is bs

[Roborbinin Ulf]

How am I supposed to fight 170k soldiers when I cant have 20k in that area without suffering massive attrition? Literally everything else about fighting China could stay the same and I wouldnt care. The attrition is just the worst, and Western Protectorate do not abide by the same rules as I have to.

Picture shows my men dying like dogs while chinese troops are comfortably sits around.

 

[Zarathustra_the]

Your generals need more martial. and you should have built more forts!

 

[_Perun_]

Your generals need more martial and you should have built some tanks with anti-infantry weapons.

 

[Roborbinin Ulf]

I don't see how having better generals is going to fix my attrition problem. Forts only have a garrison of like 116 or something really low like that and have fort level 2, so they get overrun insanely quickly. I assume the comment about tanks with anti infantry weapons is about hoi4, which I've never played before, so thats not very useful.

 

[Kurblius]

I don't see how having better generals is going to fix my attrition problem. Forts only have a garrison of like 116 or something really low like that and have fort level 2, so they get overrun insanely quickly. I assume the comment about tanks with anti infantry weapons is about hoi4, which I've never played before, so thats not very useful.

HIgher martial scores mean higher supply limit. Modifiers like "Winter Soldier" also play a role.

 

[_Perun_]

I assume the comment about tanks with anti infantry weapons is about hoi4, which I've never played before, so thats not very useful.

Not necessarily. A Königstiger or two would be perfect but I think that a Victoria 2 tanks could make a short work of the Chinese as well.
That was supposed to be a joke, of course. The advice with forts seemed so EU4-ish that I could not help but imagine the Chinese getting their asses kicked by a technologically superior nation.

And to being serious for at least a moment - fighting with the Chinese is all about logistics. Plan a good spot for defence (mountains, river crossing), put there as many troops as you can, put reinforcements in the neighboring provinces, lure the enemy to the desired province and one day before he arrives, start sending reinforcements. The ideal outcome is that they manage to send all their forces there, for you to slaughter. Timing is everything because if you send your reinforcements too fast, they may kill the initial Chinese stack too soon and the rest of them will just cancel their move.
During battles neither of sides suffer attrition but after that you are going to be left with all the partaking forces in that province so ideally choose a place with small provinces (that is, short time of travel between them) when planning things in the beginning.
You may need to repeat the procedure once or twice but it's doable with forces being ~75% of their number.
And that is the only advice I can give when it comes to fighting attitionfree Chinese ubermensch.

fighting china is bs [2]

 

[rinehime]

How am I supposed to fight 170k soldiers when I cant have 20k in that area without suffering massive attrition? Literally everything else about fighting China could stay the same and I wouldnt care. The attrition is just the worst, and Western Protectorate do not abide by the same rules as I have to.

Picture shows my men dying like dogs while chinese troops are comfortably sits around.

Are you invading China or just attacking the WP? Or being attacked? Are you losing men b/c of supply limit or day-of-supply attrition or both? Don't stack so many men there in the winter, yeah, they'll die

Let the event troops come to you, where you have high supply, then attack them.

HIgher martial scores mean higher supply limit. Modifiers like "Winter Soldier" also play a role.

Martial helps with attrition, but I don't think it gives a higher supply limit. Winter Soldier would be quite useful here, but a bit of a crapshoot to get, unless you're always fighting in winter. Way of the Dog would help too (-50% attrition, +30 days of supply) and is quite easy to get from a strategist teaching commanders.

Your generals need more martial. and you should have built more forts!

I think forts only help against the "unreformed pagan" attrition, which shouldn't be an issue here. They may count as an occupied holding for the "out-of-supply / days-of-supply" modifiers, so might help in that regard.

 

[Roborbinin Ulf]

Not necessarily. A Königstiger or two would be perfect but I think that a Victoria 2 tanks could make a short work of the Chinese as well.
That was supposed to be a joke, of course. The advice with forts seemed so EU4-ish that I could not help but imagine the Chinese getting their asses kicked by a technologically superior nation.

And to being serious for at least a moment - fighting with the Chinese is all about logistics. Plan a good spot for defence (mountains, river crossing), put there as many troops as you can, put reinforcements in the neighboring provinces, lure the enemy to the desired province and one day before he arrives, start sending reinforcements. The ideal outcome is that they manage to send all their forces there, for you to slaughter. Timing is everything because if you send your reinforcements too fast, they may kill the initial Chinese stack too soon and the rest of them will just cancel their move.
During battles neither of sides suffer attrition but after that you are going to be left with all the partaking forces in that province so ideally choose a place with small provinces (that is, short time of travel between them) when planning things in the beginning.
You may need to repeat the procedure once or twice but it's doable with forces being ~75% of their number.
And that is the only advice I can give when it comes to fighting attitionfree Chinese ubermensch.

fighting china is bs [2]

I fought two wars with china. Once right after the dreaded plague when China wanted the Western Protectorate lands back, and once right after when I tried taking the duchy back in a holy war. I have never fought with China before this. The issue I had with the initial attack was that Chinese troops assaulted all my holdings and got 99% warscore before I even managed to get a somewhat reasonable response in place. I was sloppy and he got a good battle against my retinue troops, fair enough. But when I did my holy war, he would not move his troops further than 1 county inside my borders, so I was forced to bring all my levies up to the shitty attrition hell where Western Protectorate has his holdings.
I bet, if I had planned my attack a little better, I could have gotten a better outcome, but I still think this is bs.

Are you invading China or just attacking the WP? Or being attacked? Are you losing men b/c of supply limit or day-of-supply attrition or both? Don't stack so many men there in the winter, yeah, they'll die

Let the event troops come to you, where you have high supply, then attack them.


Martial helps with attrition, but I don't think it gives a higher supply limit. Winter Soldier would be quite useful here, but a bit of a crapshoot to get, unless you're always fighting in winter. Way of the Dog would help too (-50% attrition, +30 days of supply) and is quite easy to get from a strategist teaching commanders.


I think forts only help against the "unreformed pagan" attrition, which shouldn't be an issue here. They may count as an occupied holding for the "out-of-supply / days-of-supply" modifiers, so might help in that regard.

Most of my troops were always within my own borders, so I do not suffer days of out supply, but rather the county's supply limit is killing my men. I would fall back and wait for the enemy, but in a holy war I started against them, they would not move out of the target duchy.

 

[rinehime]

I fought two wars with china. Once right after the dreaded plague when China wanted the Western Protectorate lands back, and once right after when I tried taking the duchy back in a holy war.

Most of my troops were always within my own borders, so I do not suffer days of out supply, but rather the county's supply limit is killing my men. I would fall back and wait for the enemy, but in a holy war I started against them, they would not move out of the target duchy.

So neither of these were actual Invasions, just attacking/defending against the WP. The event troops should be a good deal smaller (than when you launch an invasion) in that case. Yeah, the attritionlesss Chinese armies are still an OP PITA, but they're definitely not that hard to defeat, unless you're tiny or the WP is huge.

For the defensive war, you can fight them on your own turf and maneuver much easier, just make sure you win the first battle with them to counteract the 99% warscore if they've occupied a ton of territory.

For the offensive war, wait till they're not in a Golden Age or Stable i.e. when they have one of the negative statuses (unrest/famine/Civil War/Invasiont/etc). I think they get fewer event troops that way and you'll often see a revolt as well, significantly reducing the WP's levies.

 

[Kurblius]

Martial helps with attrition, but I don't think it gives a higher supply limit. Winter Soldier would be quite useful here, but a bit of a crapshoot to get, unless you're always fighting in winter. Way of the Dog would help too (-50% attrition, +30 days of supply) and is quite easy to get from a strategist teaching commanders.

Interesting. Can you explain how exactly generals help with attrition but not supply limit? I thought attrition was what you got when you exceeded your supply limit, hence I assumed martial just raises the supply limit. If it doesn't do that, how exactly does it work?

 

[rinehime]

Interesting. Can you explain how exactly generals help with attrition but not supply limit? I thought attrition was what you got when you exceeded your supply limit, hence I assumed martial just raises the supply limit. If it doesn't do that, how exactly does it work?

The difference is that with a high martial commander, you'll lose fewer troops than you would otherwise, but you're still going to lose men if you're over the supply limit.

Supply limit determines how many total men you can field and not get any attrition. The martial stat reduces attrition by .1% per point, but it won't let you field more men without taking loses. Increases in supply limit (like Winter Soldier, owned/occupied holdings, tech,etc) are more valuable because they both increase the men you can field without any loses AND reduce the amount of loses you'll take for the same size army over the supply limit (b/c attrition is based on % over supply limit). Traits reducing attrition are nice, but not necessary if your supply limit is high enough.

 

[Yeekim]

I seem to recall a DD where it was promised (?) that the attritionless BS would be done away with. Though iirc it was talking about Mongols.
Did I just imagine that?

 

[WomboCombo]

I seem to recall a DD where it was promised (?) that the attritionless BS would be done away with. Though iirc it was talking about Mongols.
Did I just imagine that?

If you could dig it up that'd be nice.

 

[Beyond Disbelief]

How am I supposed to fight 170k soldiers when I cant have 20k in that area without suffering massive attrition? Literally everything else about fighting China could stay the same and I wouldnt care. The attrition is just the worst, and Western Protectorate do not abide by the same rules as I have to.

Picture shows my men dying like dogs while chinese troops are comfortably sits around.

Presenting a screenshot in the winter and complaning about attrition makes it difficult to assess whether or not the circumstances are truly OP.

Without winter soldier I couldn't even fight tribal scandinavians in the winter, much less the Chinese.

 

[VoodooEconomist]

If you could dig it up that'd be nice.

I thought I remembered something like that, but the only thing I've found was that the AI will now respect attrition more - in case of attritionless troops nothing was said one way or another, but they were mentioned so it seems Paradox wasn't going to remove them:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/ck2-dev-diary-68-taming-the-dragon.1046202/

 

[Sonmi]

To be entirely honest, Chinese troops should suffer attrition and keep progressively reinforcing until they reach their unit cap, the doomstacks created by China are by far the most ridiculous I've ever seen in the game.

 

[Caeserion]

1) Chinese AI should be changed to prioritise fighting armies instead of sieging down lands.
2) China should get less warscore from any lands they do manage to siege down
3) China should have multiple stacks with a hard limit of how many troops can be in one stack
4) Change Chinese troop composition to reflect the fact that most troops they could field were drafted farmers, not professional soldiers. The Sui dynasty did rely on a force of professional cavalrymen but under the Tang this system broke down and reverted back to the former drafted peasantry system. The Song increased the centralisation and reduced the power of local rulers and generals whom they viewed as directly responsible for the breakdown of Imperial authority of the Tang. This made the armies more loyal to the Emperor, but weaker against foreign armies since the generals who fought those gained enough prestige that they were executed/exiled/maligned by the Emperor, leaving no one who knew how to fight properly, or limiting the actions of those who did. The Yuan used a blend of their own nomadic forces and chinese forces, focusing more on nomadic logistics. Gunpowder spread widely under them and since CK2 has no equivalent for that, the armies under the Yuan (or after them) could be portrayed as much stronger, with a better troop composition. While its true that crossbows were the primary weapon of Chinese armies pre-gunpowder, CK2 doesn't really differentiate crossbowmen from archers so Idk what to do about that.

Anyone of these could make China easier to beat.

 

[Jaang]

How am I supposed to fight 170k soldiers when I cant have 20k in that area without suffering massive attrition? Literally everything else about fighting China could stay the same and I wouldnt care. The attrition is just the worst, and Western Protectorate do not abide by the same rules as I have to.

Picture shows my men dying like dogs while chinese troops are comfortably sits around.

I beat the crap out of China when they sent 170,000 soldiers at me... to fight me in Tibet.


Rules to beating Chinese invasion:


1. Never. Ever. Ever. Engage thier forces in battle unless you are guaranteed to win the battle.


2. If it looks like Chinese forces are about to engage one of your stacks, and the engagement will be a loss for you, then disband the stack. The Chinese can't beat troops that aren't there.


3. The Chinese can't win until they can force you to surrender. They can't do this until they have 100% war score. Not 97%. Not 99%. One Hundred Percent. If they don't get 100%, they can't win. Not in 1 year, not in 1,000 years.


4. The Chinese cannot, ever, reach 100% war score unless they defeat one of your field armies. If you don't allow them to beat any of your armies in the field, then they can't reach 100%, and therefore can't force you to surrender, and therefore can't win.


5. Get used to playing at a slow game speed, with one finger on the pause button, and constantly examine the Chinese stacks. Closely. The AI has a trick where they'll have two stacks moving in a province... but the graphic troops are shown moving away from you, while a stack with 44,000 troops is under that stack headed right at your stack of 20,000. Don't fall for the trick. Watch everything closely.


6. Be patient. You're going to play "rope a dope" with the Chinese stacks. Meaning, your going to keep your stacks all near each other, where they can group and attack when the time is right, but otherwise will scatter and move srperately aside as the Chinese stacks move.


7. The Chinese will eventually spread out to lay siege and conquer territory. That's fine. You want this. Let them sit at 99% warscore and beseige all they like. Be patient. Wait and watch.


8. Your army will suffer horrible attrition. It is what it is. Try to minimize it when you can by spreading out, but all those troops had thier death warrants signed the second the Chinese invaded. You're gonna lose them all. Maybe two or three times over.


9. Turn off retinue reinforcements. You can't afford it, no matter how much you make. Seriously. Turn it off until the war is over.


10. Eventually, there will come a time when you get local force superiority and can overwhelm a Chinese stack with sheer numbers, without being instantly curbstomped by other Chinese stacks.


11. Once you attack, they'll send thier other stacks nearby towards the battle, and you need to do the same. At this point, attrition becomes meaningless, as you must get every soldier you possess into that county to steamroll each late-arriving Chinese stack as they arrive, smash them all, and then pursue and mop up the survivors, and retake occupied territory when practical.


12. Once the last stack of the initial Chinese Invasion is stomped, a new Chinese force will appear... usually in Bengal.


13. The new force is scaled to your CURRENT army strength, which should be a mostly-decimated shadow of you pre-war army... so, maybe 15,000 to 20,000 new Chinese troops. Kill them. Mercenaries will work for for this... which is why you didn't waste thousands of gold on replenishing your retinues in attrition land. Use it for the mercs.


14. Bam. Chinese invasion defeated.

 

[Roborbinin Ulf]

I beat the crap out of China when they sent 170,000 soldiers at me... to fight me in Tibet.


Rules to beating Chinese invasion:


1. Never. Ever. Ever. Engage thier forces in battle unless you are guaranteed to win the battle.


2. If it looks like Chinese forces are about to engage one of your stacks, and the engagement will be a loss for you, then disband the stack. The Chinese can't beat troops that aren't there.


3. The Chinese can't win until they can force you to surrender. They can't do this until they have 100% war score. Not 97%. Not 99%. One Hundred Percent. If they don't get 100%, they can't win. Not in 1 year, not in 1,000 years.


4. The Chinese cannot, ever, reach 100% war score unless they defeat one of your field armies. If you don't allow them to beat any of your armies in the field, then they can't reach 100%, and therefore can't force you to surrender, and therefore can't win.


5. Get used to playing at a slow game speed, with one finger on the pause button, and constantly examine the Chinese stacks. Closely. The AI has a trick where they'll have two stacks moving in a province... but the graphic troops are shown moving away from you, while a stack with 44,000 troops is under that stack headed right at your stack of 20,000. Don't fall for the trick. Watch everything closely.


6. Be patient. You're going to play "rope a dope" with the Chinese stacks. Meaning, your going to keep your stacks all near each other, where they can group and attack when the time is right, but otherwise will scatter and move srperately aside as the Chinese stacks move.


7. The Chinese will eventually spread out to lay siege and conquer territory. That's fine. You want this. Let them sit at 99% warscore and beseige all they like. Be patient. Wait and watch.


8. Your army will suffer horrible attrition. It is what it is. Try to minimize it when you can by spreading out, but all those troops had thier death warrants signed the second the Chinese invaded. You're gonna lose them all. Maybe two or three times over.


9. Turn off retinue reinforcements. You can't afford it, no matter how much you make. Seriously. Turn it off until the war is over.


10. Eventually, there will come a time when you get local force superiority and can overwhelm a Chinese stack with sheer numbers, without being instantly curbstomped by other Chinese stacks.


11. Once you attack, they'll send thier other stacks nearby towards the battle, and you need to do the same. At this point, attrition becomes meaningless, as you must get every soldier you possess into that county to steamroll each late-arriving Chinese stack as they arrive, smash them all, and then pursue and mop up the survivors, and retake occupied territory when practical.


12. Once the last stack of the initial Chinese Invasion is stomped, a new Chinese force will appear... usually in Bengal.


13. The new force is scaled to your CURRENT army strength, which should be a mostly-decimated shadow of you pre-war army... so, maybe 15,000 to 20,000 new Chinese troops. Kill them. Mercenaries will work for for this... which is why you didn't waste thousands of gold on replenishing your retinues in attrition land. Use it for the mercs.


14. Bam. Chinese invasion defeated.

Thank you for the help. I did manage to invade china and place my Daughter on the throne, 7 years before the game end. I did not have to kill nearly all of their event spawned troops, and I got loads of warscore by occupying the lands Western Protectorate had acquired. Luckily, it doesn't actually seem that the amount of troops China sends after you is scaled indefinitely to how many troops you have yourself. He only sent 172k event spawned troops from China proper. I just had my troops stationed in the supply heaven that is India, and waited there. He didnt even bother to siege down any of my holdings except to counties, just rushed all the way down to where my units were, presumably to lift the occupations in his Indian holdings.
Ended up being much easier than I anticipated. And so, my Catholic WC is complete.

 

[klopkr]

Usually the last expansion is super flawed and gets fixed by the next expansion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯