Fighter stacking penalty

[herm]

It sounds that way. The answer may be in the words of Wee Willie Keeler, "Hit 'em where they ain't”

Andrew

But I really think that I should be able to win air battles with equal numbers, or at least have a chance, to penalize the human player is not my idea of fun. I generally tend to play at no higher difficulty level than the highest one where "terms" are equal. (I know that it is a computer and I should be able to "outsmart" it, but I can do that on equal terms also.)

Edit: "Ctrl + Right Click" so THATS it! Thanks disgu... something

 

[kionas76]

I'm a beta-tester - one of the few left who is still keen to find and fix the problems with HoI 1. But this 20% supply issue is a minor one IMO. My wish list still includes the following:

* night-flyer
* expeditionary forces
* tech rushing
* tech transfer
* military access
* landing craft
* multi-role fighters
* infrastructure
* minisubs
* fog of war
* movement rates
* blitzkrieg
* retreating aircraft
* naval bombers
* AI rebasing

That's just off the top of my head and I could go on for hours about these things. The game isn't perfect. HoI 2 won't be perfect either. So it goes...

Andrew

Lets try to stick to real issues and not only wishes.
The -20% bug is very very bad and annoying.Try invade the US with Japan having a -20% plus -66% for a totall of -86% efficiency even if everything else is perfect.As you can see its neither small or minor.
Otherwise i agree with some of the points in the list if you add weather/commando bug/stack penalty for fighters and some more.
In any case given that lot of people have complained about the -20% i find the absence of any official responce very disturbing.

 

[unmerged(14249)]

Lets try to stick to real issues and not only wishes.

The issue I cite are quite real and more important to me than problems experienced when Japan invades the USA. If Japan has supply problems when invading the USA then that sounds fine to me. But if we can get to the bottom of what's causing the -20% supply issue in unexpected cases then that's fine and worth doing. Maybe there's a workround in the game or a mod that will alleviate it. I don't have the answer myself but will be bearing it in mind when testing future versions like HoI 2.

Andrew

 

[kionas76]

If Japan has supply problems when invading the USA then that sounds fine to me.

Andrew

Fine for you?Well if you dont play it then i can understand it.What i cant thought and certainly dont like is to send 200 trasport points with more than 50 escorts as a convoy for 5 divisions and still get the penalty when i attack.
This is not normal bevaus ewith all that supply my units whould have a problem on where to put them not the lack of them.
As i siad before i have the feeling(which only gets bigger with every new patch AFTER 1.06)that nobody cares too much about HoI1 any more and probably older as well as newly introduced bugs/problems will remain unsolved.
Unless of cource the idea is to include a very good solution for the majority of bugs/problems in Gold version and then ask-suggest that if we want thse fixes then we should purchace it.

 

[Horrorshow]

I'm sorry, but I seriously doubt that the folks who hate the stacking rule are really being smacked around by the AI. I suspect that they are used to making uber-stacks and are ticked off that they can no longer do so.

Realism? As if putting every single fighter in your country into 1 stack was somehow "realistic". Why does that AI get a free pass to do so? Um, let me think: because the AI needs it in order to present you with a challenge?

I am still waiting for a player to post a screenshot or AAR showing how this change lets the AI crush them. If the AI is building giant stacks then build better fighters. If you can't match him in the air match him with flak and AA units.

 

[unmerged(16099)]

I'm sorry, but I seriously doubt that the folks who hate the stacking rule are really being smacked around by the AI. I suspect that they are used to making uber-stacks and are ticked off that they can no longer do so.

Realism? As if putting every single fighter in your country into 1 stack was somehow "realistic". Why does that AI get a free pass to do so? Um, let me think: because the AI needs it in order to present you with a challenge?

I am still waiting for a player to post a screenshot or AAR showing how this change lets the AI crush them. If the AI is building giant stacks then build better fighters. If you can't match him in the air match him with flak and AA units.

For me at least, it greatly decreases my immersion into the game when the AI operates on rules so very different from a human player. You could have the better and bigger airforce, and still be reduced to playing hit and run games against a small but concentrated AI airforce since the rules do not let you concentrate your forces. Sure, it makes the game harder but it is also very unrealistic. The older aircombat rules might have been unrealistic too, but at least they were more internally consistant.

If challenge is our only goal then lets just expand these new penalties to ground units? Or why did we waste time fixing the 1.05 naval system. It would have been more challenging and easier to leave the human penalty at 12 and just let the AI concentrate ships at will.

--
EnPeaSea

 

[herm]

For me at least, it greatly decreases my immersion into the game when the AI operates on rules so very different from a human player. You could have the better and bigger airforce, and still be reduced to playing hit and run games against a small but concentrated AI airforce since the rules do not let you concentrate your forces. Sure, it makes the game harder but it is also very unrealistic. The older aircombat rules might have been unrealistic too, but at least they were more internally consistant.

If challenge is our only goal then lets just expand these new penalties to ground units? Or why did we waste time fixing the 1.05 naval system. It would have been more challenging and easier to leave the human penalty at 12 and just let the AI concentrate ships at will.

--
EnPeaSea

Well, look at this, saves me the trouble writing all that

To be even clearer: The mountain attacking penalty is huge but it is ok since we (humans) have the same advantage/disadvantage as the computer.

The different rules for computer is something that belongs on the harder difficulties.

Note: I personally do not, at least as Germany or any of the bigger nations, stack all my planes in the same stack, unless the computer has many planes someplace and I need all my fighters to handle it (havent happend yet).

 

[unmerged(17664)]

So at 10% per/fighter over 4 in a stack of 10 fighters. They operate at -60% of effectiveness.According to my math that is like having 4 fighters. So combining fighters to counter uber stacks has no positive effect. I would think that you would at least get some of the extra fire power.

Does this penalty apply to bombers? I seem to recall it being an air stacking limit.


Mort

 

[unmerged(14249)]

So at 10% per/fighter over 4 in a stack of 10 fighters. They operate at -60% of effectiveness.According to my math that is like having 4 fighters. So combining fighters to counter uber stacks has no positive effect.

That's not correct because 10 fighters can absorb more hits, and so the effect of the enemy's fire is diluted. The balance point depends upon the other bonuses and penalties. If you have a good leader with good traits in good circumstances then the optimum may still be to have 12 fighters.

Andrew

 

[unmerged(29582)]

...Interesting to hear complaints about the AI "cheating". As far as I know there isn't a single challenging strategy game where the AI doesn't 'cheat' in some way, with extra forces or omniscience/omnipotence of some kind or other. Rather pointless to complain about a basic fact of computer games.
...If we are talking about HOI as a simulation the very idea of the Japanese EVER being able to invade the continental US or "The Lower 48" as we Alaskans refer to it, is inherently ludicrous. Japan didn't even try to invade Hawaii in 1941 as they realized it would be impossible to maintain forces that far away from their base of supply.

 

[herm]

...Interesting to hear complaints about the AI "cheating". As far as I know there isn't a single challenging strategy game where the AI doesn't 'cheat' in some way, with extra forces or omniscience/omnipotence of some kind or other. Rather pointless to complain about a basic fact of computer games.

The only problem I have is when the computer gets an advantage in the actual fighting, as far as I understand the computer gets "bonus %" in fighting on the "Hard" and "Very Hard" difficulties.

Personally I would not enjoy playing under those conditions but I have no problem with it if it is just on the higher difficulties. Just give me a "normal" mode where I have the same chance to win a battle in the same condition as the computer have. Then all who wants a "bigger challange" can just choose "Very Hard".

 

[unmerged(27034)]

The thing that worries me about air stacking in 1.06c...

Is what can us humans do against 9-12 sized uberstacks of ai planes ? If it's anything like previous versions, the AI will still use stacks of that size. I can't think of anything that humans can throw against stacks of that size and not lose real bad.

 

[unmerged(17324)]

Just a passing thought

I think a 5% efficiency loss per plane over 4 planes would be a nice improvement, that would still give the AI some air advantage and give back the human player some power as well. Or they could use the stairstep method and for every plane over 4 the % goes up by the number of planes ie: 5 planes 5%, 6 planes 6%, 7 planes 7%, etc. etc.

I want to see the AI have advantages and handicaps, but, I don't want to be totally under powered in doing so. 10% per plane is a little steep, but, 5% or the increment system seems fair.

 

[unmerged(13931)]

Fixing Air War

Since the files/creation of this game isn't that complex (such as events, and unit stats), would it be possible for someone to mention how to remove the new fighter/air war stacking. I just today uninstalled my 1.06 CORE .83, so that I install 1.06c ( I was holding out on 1.06b) and CORE .84.

Even though I have yet to install the new patches I know that the the Air war will be completely ruined, as even in 1.05 it was difficult to beat the RAF fighter stacks over the channel, as well as to prevent the ever increasing threats of bomber attacks. While I know this is historical, I can't wonder but suspect that the AI super air stacks (unfortunately sometimes in CORE AI's), will be unbeatable as the Axis.

The last game (as Germany 1.06 CORE .83b?) I played ended yesterday. During the war the British AI kept sending its 12 fighters between UK isles and N. Africa, my fighters were never able to stop them as I had to prevent the USAF and RAF Bomber Commands from doing their jobs. Now with the AI not suffering a penalty, will they simply annihalite me, instead of the pre 1.06 attrition.

I would like some feedback from people who have played 1.06c, so as to gauge wether it is worth switching (cant myself, am out of state), and if not what can be done to fix. If no one knows I guess I'll just wait to gander through the files myself, but that will require install, etc.....aaahhh bit it's worth it I guess.

Thanks, and sorry for the long post and new thread.

 

[unmerged(14249)]

Since the files/creation of this game isn't that complex (such as events, and unit stats), would it be possible for someone to mention how to remove the new fighter/air war stacking.
...
I would like some feedback from people who have played 1.06c, so as to gauge wether it is worth switching.

The stacking penalty is set within the program itself and the only way to change that is with a hex editor, as was done for the no-time-limit mods.

I have played 1.06c several times and, overall, find the air stacking rule to be an improvement. It may be that it would be even better if tweaked further but there's no easy way to DIY that, alas.

Andrew

 

[orko]

I don't mind the airstacking penalty, if the computer wouldn't hit my airforce hard. I have never been hit with a 12+ stack yet, but my 4 stacks of fighters plus tac bombers (usually no higher than 7) do take quite a lot of damage from the AI. I do get frustrated at those times. I liked the idea of just lowering the amounts of command by the ranks of the commanders, or lowering the penalty a touch. I do send in more than 4 fighters to combat these big stacks I've run into, just (as someone mentioned already) to spread out the damage.

As far as the supply issue, I hate the logistical penalties. I want my researched techs to be able to offset this, and they can't. I want a game that has historical aspects, but I do not want to have every detail or limitation of history involved. I don't want LST's because I don't want to have to micromange at that level. yadyadyadayda...


There's my two bits...

 

[smn_]

The stacking penalty is set within the program itself and the only way to change that is with a hex editor, as was done for the no-time-limit mods.

I have played 1.06c several times and, overall, find the air stacking rule to be an improvement. It may be that it would be even better if tweaked further but there's no easy way to DIY that, alas.

Andrew

As it is, I see the air stacking penalty as a mess, that would have been an improvement if a little more care and consideration had been used.. The huge penalty makes some AI stacks, in particular those of the US, impossible to destroy if one isn't able to sneak-land some troops on an unprotected beach where they are stationed. I don't think this is a very realistic way to win the air war

I'd like to see a similar system as with navies for the air stack rules .. This would enable turning the penalty on for AI too .. Math Guy where are you, we need you to sort out the formula Also maybe the air defence values of all the air units should be improved somewhat to slow down those insta-slaughters.

 

[smn_]

I'm sorry, but I seriously doubt that the folks who hate the stacking rule are really being smacked around by the AI. I suspect that they are used to making uber-stacks and are ticked off that they can no longer do so.

Realism? As if putting every single fighter in your country into 1 stack was somehow "realistic". Why does that AI get a free pass to do so? Um, let me think: because the AI needs it in order to present you with a challenge?

I am still waiting for a player to post a screenshot or AAR showing how this change lets the AI crush them. If the AI is building giant stacks then build better fighters. If you can't match him in the air match him with flak and AA units.

I recently experienced this when trying to invade US with Japan. I must have lost over 10 divisions + countless MP in casualties directly and several more indirectly, because of a stack of 12 hi-tech dive bombers. Shooting them down was impossible, since they would rip my fighter stacks apart without any fighter support of their own.

I tried to kill them by having several navies with troops in them all along the US coast, and almost managed to land on them once when the stack was regaining org on an undefended beach.. This is neither realistic nor fun. I agree that the stacking penalty is needed, but it should be toned down somewhat, and applied to the AI too!

 

[smn_]

I think a 5% efficiency loss per plane over 4 planes would be a nice improvement, that would still give the AI some air advantage and give back the human player some power as well. Or they could use the stairstep method and for every plane over 4 the % goes up by the number of planes ie: 5 planes 5%, 6 planes 6%, 7 planes 7%, etc. etc.

I want to see the AI have advantages and handicaps, but, I don't want to be totally under powered in doing so. 10% per plane is a little steep, but, 5% or the increment system seems fair.

I think the penalty should be neither linear nor exponential, but rather logarithmic. This would make it possible for applying the penalty for the AI too, without making it possible to slaughter all of their planes too easily. Something like the current naval stacking penalty rule.

 

[unmerged(29126)]

The AI will never be able to handle it. Preventing human players of creating an Ueberstack is not done because its historically inaccurate but because the A.I. needs an advantage and also because in MP (or so I've read, as I don't play MP)
air engagements with Ueberstacks tend to be very lopsided, as in one side loses all the planes and the other survives with 11 outa 12 ... at least that's what I've heard.