Fiefs & Burgundy

[Mike von Bek]

Im trying to get my head around Burgundy's fiefs but its proving somewhat difficult to get into my noggin. As far as I understand Burgundy contained fiefs that owed allegiance to either France or the HRE - but Ive no idea how that worked.

Are there any links on the web that could help me get my bonce round this thorny problem? Explain the whole fiefing situation, for a start!

Argh! Brain hurts!

 

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IIRC, "Burgundy" came to be divided (can't remember how) into the "Duchy of Burgundy," which was a vassal of the King of France and early on incomporated directly as a part of France and the "County of Burgundy" which was NOT incorporated into france until very late, and was nominally part of the HRE. This is the part of Burgundy that the French called "Franche-Comte", which in middle french literally means "Free County"; that is the Free County of Burgundy, in contrast to the Vassalized Duchy of Burgundy. The Duchy of Burgundy's most famous city is probably Dijon (of mustard fame) and according to the map below, comprises 4 French departments. Franche-Comte's most important city is Besancon, and encompases another 4 departments.

maps of historical regions of france... "Burgundy" and "Franche-Comte" are the two that comprise most of the nation of Burgundy

http://www.discover-france.info/gettingthere_maps.htm

an article on the history of Burgundy, which states that it was as a result of the Hundred Years War that the "Duchy" was separated from the "County"

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/Burgundy_History.asp

another article on burgundian history:

http://www.dragonbear.com/burgundy.html

 

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Burgundy was, at different times and at times simultaneous, all of a Kingdom, a Duchy AND a County. The Duchy of Burgundy was an integral part of the Kingdom of France, and was NEVER a part of the Kingdom of Burgundy. The County of Burgundy (Franche-Comte) was NEVER a part of the Duchy; it was the northernmost portion of the Kingdom of Burgundy. Are you confused now?

Geographically, the Kingdom consisted of the Rhone Valley, the Duchy corresponds to modern Burgundy, and the County was the border region between France and Switzerland.

The Kingdom of Burgundy was inherited by the Holy Roman Emperor in 1032, and for all essential purposes ceased to exist. Most of the Kingdom became de facto independent, except the County which was definitely under the Emperor's sway. When the Capetian branch that ruled as Dukes died out in 1361, the Duchy was given to a younger brother of the King of France, and thus the Valois Ducal line (the most famous of the Dukes) was born. In 1384 the reigning Valois Duke inherited the County. However, the Duke never did homage to either the King of France (who had no rights in the County) or the Emperor (who did, but was too weak to enforce them) for the County of Burgundy.

The Duke in question, Philip II the Bold, had gained the County by marrying Margaret of Flanders, who also brought Flanders and Brabant and a claim to Holland and Hainault. Philip and his descendents made it something of a (bloody) hobby collecting the remaining provinces in the Low Countries, a process completed by Philip's direct descendent Charles V, who acquired Friesland and Gelre in the 1520's. Soon, a tradition arose where the Low Countries, combined with the Duchy and County, were collectively referred to as "Burgundy". This tradition continued even after the Duchy proper was separated from the rest in 1483, as King Louis XII of France dismembered the Valois Duke's holdings after the death of the last Duke, Charles the Rash, in 1477.

Heck, all that is even more confusing than my first paragraph. Sorry; here's a web site that talks about some of this:

http://www.friesian.com/flanders.htm#burgundy

 

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Originally posted by Von Bek
Im trying to get my head around Burgundy's fiefs but its proving somewhat difficult to get into my noggin. As far as I understand Burgundy contained fiefs that owed allegiance to either France or the HRE - but Ive no idea how that worked.

Are there any links on the web that could help me get my bonce round this thorny problem? Explain the whole fiefing situation, for a start!

Argh! Brain hurts!

I've links, but it's in french
http://gilles.maillet.free.fr/histoire/recit/recit_des_burgondes.htm

you've got maps, too...

 

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The original Kingdom of Burgundy was divided into Upper & Lower Burgundies. Western part of Upper Burgundy went to France as the Duchy of Burgundy. Otto I of Germany vassalized the kingdom (937-), Henry II got its last king Rudolf III to name him heir, & Conrad II used this deal to conquer it (1032-). It remained divided into Upper (Hochburgund) & Lower (Niederburgund) Burgundy. The nominal capital was Arles.

-Upper was made a duchy for the Zahringens (1090s), who founded Bern, Fribourg, etc., and obtained the Advocacies of Lausanne, Sion, Geneva, & IIRC Basel. It also included the Palatinate/County of Burgundy (later Franche Comte), which the Zahringens claimed (1127), but finally relinquished when Frederick I married its heiress Beatrix (1156). After the extinction of the Zahringens (1218), the vast majority of their lands were acquired by the Hapsburgs and later formed the core of Switzerland.

-Lower remained fragmented, including the Counties of Savoy, Dauphine/Viennois, Provence (held by Aragon), & the Vivarais/Margravate of Provence (held by the Counts of Toulouse). After the fall of the Staufen dynasty (1250), imperial control was effectively lost, and France began gobbling up Lower.

Here's a map of the Empire showing the Kingdom of Burgundy; basically everything north of the Rhone is Upper & south of is Lower I think. http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/roman_empire_1138_1254.jpg

 

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Hehe...I just saw KriegHund's post in the "Hometown" OT thread. He was born in Macon, so he's a real-life Burgundian! Ask him all about Burgundy.

The Counts of Macon, or at least members of their house, held the Palatinate of Burgundy (Franche Comte), and it was one of theirs (Beatrix) that Frederick I married (1156) to inherit the Palatinate. Beatrix ruled it personally until her death (1184), at which point it went to their son Otto.

Krieg, are there any local castles or other buildings left from the original counts?

 

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I'm burgundian and proud to be a burgundian (as in one of our song). i've even a burgundian flag above my bed...

But macon was not really part of burgundy. In fact, Macon belong to the duchy of burgundy only between the treaty of Arras and 1477. Macon belong to the King of France since the 13th century (the count of macon, at this time, resign his county and give Macon to the king, Louis IX (aka St Louis), and became a monk).

The count of macon was really powerful during the 10th-11th century. The counts of macon were also count of burgundy, giving them a great power (they were vassals to the king of france and to the HRE... so they played one against the other)

In 9th century, the count of macon owns : macon, auvergne, Lyon, limoge.

in 982, Otte-Guillaume inherit the county, and was almost elected King of france

More about Macon here (in french)

There's nothing left of the medieval time in macon, thanks to a very bad policy toward historical sites by the town.
In fact, there is more roman remnants than medieval.

The only thing almost left was the "vieux St Vincent" (old St Vincent), the cathedral of Macon. There's only the entrance left. Started to be build in 11th century and during the 12th-13th and 14th century. she was destroyed during the 19th century, first because of the french revolution and because she started to crumble.

 

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Originally posted by KriegHund
I'm burgundian and proud to be a burgundian (as in one of our song). i've even a burgundian flag above my bed...

But macon was not really part of burgundy. In fact, Macon belong to the duchy of burgundy only between the treaty of Arras and 1477. Macon belong to the King of France since the 13th century (the count of macon, at this time, resign his county and give Macon to the king, Louis IX (aka St Louis), and became a monk).

The count of macon was really powerful during the 10th-11th century. The counts of macon were also count of burgundy, giving them a great power (they were vassals to the king of france and to the HRE... so they played one against the other)

In 9th century, the count of macon owns : macon, auvergne, Lyon, limoge.

in 982, Otte-Guillaume inherit the county, and was almost elected King of france

More about Macon here (in french)

There's nothing left of the medieval time in macon, thanks to a very bad policy toward historical sites by the town.
In fact, there is more roman remnants than medieval.

The only thing almost left was the "vieux St Vincent" (old St Vincent), the cathedral of Macon. There's only the entrance left. Started to be build in 11th century and during the 12th-13th and 14th century. she was destroyed during the 19th century, first because of the french revolution and because she started to crumble.

You mean the County of Macon wasnt part of the Duchy of Burgundy since the 13th c., not that Macon itself wasnt in the Burgundian region, right?

Wasnt it right on the Franco-German/Burgundian border, with its Count owning the Maconnais on one side and the County of Burgundy on the other?

 

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Originally posted by BarbarossaHRE
You mean the County of Macon wasnt part of the Duchy of Burgundy since the 13th c., not that Macon itself wasnt in the Burgundian region, right?

Wasnt it right on the Franco-German/Burgundian border, with its Count owning the Maconnais on one side and the County of Burgundy on the other?

macon is in the burgundian region, but the county of macon wasn't vassal of the duchy of burgundy.

Macon was on the franco-HRE border, but the county of burgundy wasn't really near the county of burgundy.

here are maps :

It's the county of Macon. East of Macon it's the HRE, but not the county of burgundy.
The county is almost 200km north-east of macon.