Fiat's CR.42 biplane is a neat little nod to history, highlights the game's "No Brainer" non-decisions

[billcorr]

Very cool.

Italy starts the 1936 scenario with a variant in place.

This *almost* forces the Italy player to make a decision:

"Do I keep the CR 42 and build up its Reliability, Range, Weapons, and Engine? Or do I say, 'thanks Celestino Rosatelli and the Fiat group, but we are going to say good-bye and research Fighter 1s' "

The decision is not there (yet).

A no brainer, as far as I can tell (others might have some other ideas).

But it is a nice "colour" aspect of the game.

Here's my hope:

-- The game designers will remove the "no brainers" decisions and introduce quandaries where players really have to make a choice.



"Addio, my little CR. 42!"

 

[xtfoster]

I'm petty sure other nations have variant in place as well.
Germany has the JU 86, which at 10-5-5-5 is actually better than the player can do and almost equal to a Tac 1 (except no Focke-Wulf designer).

 

[billcorr]

Germany has the JU 86, which at 10-5-5-5 is actually better than the player can do and almost equal to a Tac 1 (except no Focke-Wulf designer).

10

Wha'?

Whoa!

From the Vanilla Game

This is a game that has many facets.

@xtfoster, at first when you mentioned "10" as in a plane with 10-5-5-5 at the start of the game, I thought to myself, "of course, XTFoster is playing with a mod."

But it goes to show that just when you think you know the game,

this one goes to 10.




If only all the variants could go to 10...this would allow for some meaningful decisions. Some tough choices to savour.

 

[billcorr]

I'm petty sure other nations have variant in place as well.

Good question

USA: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.
ENG: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.
SOV: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.
JAP: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.


But who knows...perhaps the designers gave Portugal a starting variant.

Edit:

POR: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.
HOL: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.

 

[Paul.Ketcham]

Good question

USA: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.
ENG: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.
SOV: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.
JAP: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.


But who knows...perhaps the designers gave Portugal a starting variant.

Edit:

POR: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.
HOL: no airplane variant in place at game start as far as I could tell.

Poland has the PZL P.24 as well, I believe.

 

[billcorr]

Poland has the PZL P.24 as well, I believe.

So cool!

 

[CrazyZombie]

Meaningful choices about upgrading/completely new model would come when something like current naval designer is added to land and air vehicles. Until then... It is a no brainer.

 

[Zauberelefant]

Disagree. Of course technological advancement is a no brainer. Question is when and in what order. If as italy you plan only to take part in SCW and enter actual war in 1940, that biplane can be produced in small Numbers, then you use the research bonus to switch to Fighter 2 immediately and have those ready summer of 1940.
Or you want more Fighter 1.

That is a meaningful choice, but the weights are shifted compared to other countries.

 

[sekelsenmat]

Well, arguably in history it was also a no-brainer, so I think it is realistic.

The Japanese had a great fighter, the Zero. But failed to develop larger engines which would be needed for the next gen models. Zeroes fought well against same-generation fighters, but were massacred by next-gen fighters, isn't that right?

 

[CrazyZombie]

Well, arguably in history it was also a no-brainer, so I think it is realistic.

The Japanese had a great fighter, the Zero. But failed to develop larger engines which would be needed for the next gen models. Zeroes fought well against same-generation fighters, but were massacred by next-gen fighters, isn't that right?

Germans had their 30-s fighter Bf.109 upgraded during the whole war despite design becoming obsolete for such games. More modern and having better modernization reserves Fw-190 with radial engine never fully replaced it.

Soviets had their pre-war "modern" fighter LaGG-1 upgraded with radial engine which gave them the La model, staying in service until 50-s (and somewhere until mid-60-s).

Britain had their Spitfire through the whole war too, upgrading it with better more powerful engines.

I'd say it that current system is a crap because it doesn't show those kind of situations when you have a fine plane frame but no engine for it. Or you have a good plane right here right now but upgrading it resembles necrophilia, like better engine basically eats all the speed increase with its own mass.

Same goes for tanks - when you have to deal with what you have right here right now, like existing engine, existing gun, armor you can produce right now and etc.

 

[kimidf]

I think the design of tank and air variants should be implemented and have a similar model seen a mod through decisions until we have a specific designer
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=751452050

 

[CrazyZombie]

I'd say, there should also be rework of how design company functions. Current way is illogical, makes no sense and has nothing to do with how really state contests for arms and tenders do work.

 

[Ffire]

I would really like something like the ship designer for planes and tank, with research not about new planes every 4 years, but, researching new engines, frame, guns. Tech like rocket and radar could also be used

About designer, I would like for some countries starting with designer giving them penalties. As example, France could start with a designer emphasing their bad designs choices with tanks (1 man per turret, weak guns, no radios).

 

[Aeroclub]

Easiest fix in the universe: just double the effect of upgrades. 10-5-5-5 Tac 0 should always be better than Tac 1. That said, Tac 1 will be much easier to upgrade with experience, thus creating an interesting and difficult choice for the players.

 

[kimidf]

I'd say, there should also be rework of how design company functions. Current way is illogical, makes no sense and has nothing to do with how really state contests for arms and tenders do work they could gain some military experience from their daily branch, for example 0.25 or 0.20, which is half that of a military theorist who earns 0.50

I agree that design companies should be modified in some way, for example that when hiring military designers, they could gain some military experience from their branch around daily, for example 0.25 or 0.20, which is half that of a military theorist who earns 0.50

 

[sekelsenmat]

Germans had their 30-s fighter Bf.109 upgraded during the whole war despite design becoming obsolete for such games. More modern and having better modernization reserves Fw-190 with radial engine never fully replaced it.

Soviets had their pre-war "modern" fighter LaGG-1 upgraded with radial engine which gave them the La model, staying in service until 50-s (and somewhere until mid-60-s).

Britain had their Spitfire through the whole war too, upgrading it with better more powerful engines.

I'd say it that current system is a crap because it doesn't show those kind of situations when you have a fine plane frame but no engine for it. Or you have a good plane right here right now but upgrading it resembles necrophilia, like better engine basically eats all the speed increase with its own mass.

Same goes for tanks - when you have to deal with what you have right here right now, like existing engine, existing gun, armor you can produce right now and etc.

Some people previously argued here in the forum that the later Bf fighter was a huge change and should be a separate model (like the game has 2 Stuka models ), fw would be a 44 fighter in this case (researched ahead of time). I don't know enough to judge.

Yes, the modeling right now is limiting...

 

[CrazyZombie]

I agree that design companies should be modified in some way, for example that when hiring military designers, they could gain some military experience from their branch around daily, for example 0.25 or 0.20, which is half that of a military theorist who earns 0.50

To begin with, designers should not be "stable" + something modifier which you assign once and forget forever for the rest of the game. If there are more then one tank design bureau in the state, when government issues the technical task for the new tank, each one would take part in the contest, because army order is a tasty piece of pie. Tanks offered by different designers may differ in details but they would be more or less up to the issued technical task. So that if you ordered heavy breakthrough tank with certain thickness of armor, certain gun caliber, certain speed, you won't suddenly get cruiser tank just because designer was specialized in ones.

Current system with designers is like putting a carriage horse supposed to tow in front of said horse.

 

[CrazyZombie]

Some people previously argued here in the forum that the later Bf fighter was a huge change and should be a separate model (like the game has 2 Stuka models ), fw would be a 44 fighter in this case (researched ahead of time). I don't know enough to judge.

Yes, the modeling right now is limiting...

It had the same frame which basically crippled it's modernization potential thanks to construction of plane body, wings and chassis. Yes, sure, it had much more powerful engine, better armament, but a lot was sacrificed for this. And do just different engine and guns make the plane "completely different model"?

 

[kimidf]

I also believe that the elements that could be modified such as rifles, artillery or motorized elements should be increased as some mods do

 

[sekelsenmat]

It had the same frame which basically crippled it's modernization potential thanks to construction of plane body, wings and chassis. Yes, sure, it had much more powerful engine, better armament, but a lot was sacrificed for this. And do just different engine and guns make the plane "completely different model"?

In game terms yes, if and only if the combat performance increased enough to be similar to planes introduced 4 years later.