Feudal Monarchy

[saegoto]

?30%? of total development of your domain and your vassals has to belongs to your vassals (unions does not count). AND for every ?40? points of development of your domain u must have one vassal.

if not - minimum local autonomy in all province are ?25%?, development cost is increased, legitimicy is droping

u can not integrate vassals (inheritance is allowed)

vassals (not marches, not unions) costs no diplo slot

Vassals would have a little brighter colour of overlord to prevent make map too colorful.

If u have enough adm tech level, stability is high, legitimicy is high u can change your government to
Administrative Monarchy. All your vassals (not all subjects) which Liberty Desire is below 50% starting integrate (it costs no dip but takes time).

Spoiler

or there is no difference between Feudal and Absolutic Monarchy. Both are same centralized and the player is almighty in both of them.

Feudal monarchy should be really feudal, participated in all possible tags.

let's say 'vassal' subjects don't cost diplo slot in feudal monarchy. u cannot integrate vassals.

it would limit expansion in early years and force to change government to Adminsitrative Monarchy cuz Liberty Desire.

Historicly Reformation was destroying countries from inside. So if a vassal or overlord changes his religion Liberty Desire should increase drasticly.

Vassals would have a little brighter colour of overlord to prevent make map too colorful.

If u have enough adm tech level, stability is high, legitimicy is high u can change your government to Administrative Monarchy. All your vassals (not all subjects) which Liberty Desire is below 50% starting integrate (it cost no dip but takes time).

TL;DR
Let's do a brainstorm to inspire developers how to make Feudal Monarchy a really unique government type.

 

[grommile]

This proposal needs to be part of a complete package, because as it stands, you're basically making the worst "civilized" government even worse.

 

[saegoto]

because you will struggle with hordes of vassals?

 

[Tacticalenforce]

Basically a good idea but it needs to be rethought a little bit (f.e. easier changing conditions). Also vassals should be able to fight against each other (like with the daimyos).

 

[grommile]

because you will struggle with hordes of vassals?

If you want to put the case for weakening Feudal Monarchy (and yes, this weakens it; most countries don't have access to a huge vassal swarm, and huge vassal swarms are in any event a double-edged sword), you need to first explain why it needs to be weakened.

I mean, I seriously have never seen anyone of the game-ist persuasion say that they'd rather stay a Feudal Monarchy than switch to Administrative Monarchy (while the switch from Despotic to Administrative is genuinely questionable, though I think on balance Admin has a slight edge) for any reason other than what tends to get handwaved as "roleplaying".

 

[BrokenSky]

How about:
* Vassals do not count towards diplomacy cap
* Cannot integrate vassals (except by inheritance)
* +25% vassal income (as before)
* Vassals have reduced liberty desire (e.g. -75% liberty desire from comparative strength of vassals)
* +1 Diplomat
(removed manpower modifier)

Alternatively
* As current +
* Cannot integrate vassals except by inheritance
* Vassals have reduced liberty desire
* +X diplomatic relations
Where X = 1 for Duchies, 2 for Kingdoms and 3 for Empires?

 

[saegoto]

If you want to put the case for weakening Feudal Monarchy (and yes, this weakens it;
yes. feudal monarchy should be weaker than administrative monch or absolutic. but adm and abs and despotic should get their own mechnic too. im trying to do brainstorm of ideas about feudal monarchy right now. to inspire wiz, johan and rest of pdx devs.

most countries don't have access to a huge vassal swarm,

we can add some tags. andalusia is going to be new tag in spain for instance.

and huge vassal swarms are in any event a double-edged sword),

yes. so have to learn manage them. ofc Liberty Desire would work different for vassals in Feudal Monarchy

you need to first explain why it needs to be weakened.

eu4 time frame in political-social sphere is evolution from feudal state to absolutic, national, centralized monarchy. it's so characteristic as reformation of colonization but in EU4 it's just few bonuses.
I think there should be a huge difference between feudal and absolutism where absolutic should easier for player to manage it. to feel differenace: I've done well. now Im really absolutic ruler etc

I mean, I seriously have never seen anyone of the game-ist persuasion say that they'd rather stay a Feudal Monarchy than switch to Administrative Monarchy

I saw. Some say: manpower is better than money for me right now. So they stay feudal, eventualy change to absolutic for discipline bonus

TL;DR
I just want to do a brainstorm to inspire developers.

 

[grommile]

I saw. Some say: manpower is better than money for me right now.

Money isn't the reason to change from Feudal to Admin in the first place. The 0.05%/month LA reduction is.

 

[saegoto]

Money isn't the reason to change from Feudal to Admin in the first place. The 0.05%/month LA reduction is.

anyways it disapears in 1.12.

Do u have any ideas about feudal monarchy?


__________
or instead of Feudal monarchy should be really feudal, participated in all possible tags.
in feudal monarchy your subjects must have 51% of devopment points of sum of whole country. of not then stability cost increases, legitimicy is lowering, some events fire to create a vassal

 

[grommile]

anyways it disapears in 1.12.

Do u have any ideas about feudal monarchy?

"Make it better than Despotic, without crippling MOS and TUR."

 

[saegoto]

"Make it better than Despotic, without crippling MOS and TUR."

I think despotic should be better than feudal

 

[grommile]

I think despotic should be better than feudal

The tech tree hierarchy implies Paradox think Feudal is meant to be better. (You can only adopt Feudal if you have ADM Tech 8 or higher.)

 

[talilu]

Well a fragmented country is of course worse than a united one. Despotic should be easier to manage than Fedual with less downsides and Fedual should have minimum autonomy to sembolize that no ruler could break the fedual system without some huge reforms.

 

[BrokenSky]

Having thought about it, I think this:

* As current (+25% income from vassals, +10% manpower)+
* Cannot integrate vassals except by inheritance
* Vassals have reduced liberty desire
* +X diplomatic relations
Where X = 1 for Duchies, 2 for Kingdoms and 3 for Empires?

actually works quite well, having thought about it some more.

It has a good mix of semi-autonomy and buffs I think. If you didn't take vassals with this you'd get +10% manpower and +X extra relations. I think that'd be OK generally too, probably not OP?

So yeah. I'm changing my suggestion to this.

 

[Mattius]

Crown authority?

 

[saegoto]

?30%? of total development of your domain and your vassals has to belongs to your vassals (unions does not counts). AND for every ?40? points of development of your domain u must have one vassal.

if not - minimum local autonomy in all province are ?25%?, development cost is increased, legitimicy is droping

u can not integrate vassals (inheritance is allowed)

vassals (not marches, not unions) costs no diplo slot

Vassals would have a little brighter colour of overlord to prevent make map too colorful.

If u have enough adm tech level, stability is high, legitimicy is high u can change your government to Administrative Monarchy. All your vassals (not all subjects) which Liberty Desire is below 50% starting integrate (it costs no dip but takes time).

 

[grommile]

So what do I do if I exceed your magic numbers but physically cannot release any vassals because no cores of nonexistent countries exist on my territory? Do I just have to sit and watch my legitimacy vanish down the toilet? This isn't CK2 where literally every province has a tag associated with it.

 

[Nucky]

I understand your idea, but I don't think it's applicable. You need to think of something simpler.

The thing about vassal interaction is that very few countries start historically with large vassals that can act as separate tags, I can think only of France and Muscovy (tell me if I'm wrong), and France just lost its vassals.

My proposition for feudal monarchies and vassal interaction:
- Vassals do not take diplomatic relations slots
- Impossible to integrate vassals diplomatically, but inheritance possible
- CB to the overlord to force integrate a vassal, leading to a LD increase to other vassals if used
- Significant increase in LD when you switch to a more advance government: Vassals oppose the centralization trend

But I doubt it would be implemented as it would only be interesting for a couple of tags. What is more interesting in my opinion is something related to LA:

- Many provinces start at high LA (historically correct for most of the feudal monarchies tags, and already exists in many provinces)
- For every province with LA>10% when you switch to a more advanced government you get a +1 base revolt risk, that slowly cools down.
- More events interacting with LA

The idea is to have the provinces oppose the centralization, and that you're forced to send armies to integrate them properly in the royal demesne. Actively reducing LA is more important also.

 

[grommile]

- CB to the overlord to force integrate a vassal, leading to a LD increase to other vassals if used

Declaring war on a vassal causes a -3 stab hit (and 30AE as a result).

 

[saegoto]

We could just add more tags in Europe. There is not such a problem in India.