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lingo74

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How would you rework the feudal empire civic? I think the role playing aspect of this civic could be awesome but would like to hear people’s ideas for making it a fun civic.
 

CrazyJ

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it could be reworked as a type of federation unique to that civic that is essentially what it says on the tin, a feudal empire, all members of the fed would pay taxes to the fed leader, be unable to leave without a war, and have half of their diplo weight transferred to the fed leader. oh and since no-one in their right mind would willingly join that type of fed any empire with feudal empire civic would get a casus belli to either form a new feudal federation, or to force new empires to join. this is somewhat simialr to the hegemony fed but it also is a bit more like vassalizing them all.
 

Janx14

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it could be reworked as a type of federation unique to that civic that is essentially what it says on the tin, a feudal empire, all members of the fed would pay taxes to the fed leader, be unable to leave without a war, and have half of their diplo weight transferred to the fed leader. oh and since no-one in their right mind would willingly join that type of fed any empire with feudal empire civic would get a casus belli to either form a new feudal federation, or to force new empires to join. this is somewhat simialr to the hegemony fed but it also is a bit more like vassalizing them all.
Isn't the point of hegemony to be vassalizing them all?
 

Tobasco da Gama

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Feudal Society should probably allow non-Authoritarian empires to found Hegemonies, among its other benefits.
 

CrazyJ

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Isn't the point of hegemony to be vassalizing them all?
i was thinking that it would be a more extreme form of hegemony where the empires involved would be part of the ruling empire in all but name, you wouldn't be able to direcly control them but they would transfer a large percentage of their resources, influence and diplo weight to their overlord.
 
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Honon

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Honestly, Feudal Empire would be useful if they allowed vassals to have the same AI bonuses that federation partners do in hegemonies. The easiest way to make it work would be as a hegemony only civic that modifies hegemonies.

However, it could also be reworked to modify sectors.

For me, I would rather it stay a thing for subjects then to be a federation or sector thing. I think Vassals and Tributaries are fun to play with. I do think that any modification of Feudal Empires will need to be done in conjunction with a rework of the subject system.
 

tobias.mb

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First of all, feudal empire should get back the "vassals can expand" thing. That was the main point I liked that civic in the past.
Then the vassals should have to pay taxes. 25% minerals & energy (like a tributary) and a part of their force limit. Maybe 20%?

This would essentially combine the good things about tributaries (paying tribute) and vassals (joining your wars). And the force limit contribution (+ reduced liberty desire) would allow for a different playstyle: Keeping your own "demesne" small(ish) and relying on vassals instead. Kind of how you'd imagine a feudal empire.

It would be a bit more of a direct approach to the "Tributary Hegemony" (where all your Hegemony Subjects are also your Tributaries). Normally you can't call Tributaries into wars, but you can call them in as part of your Hegemony and you do get some of their force limit in form of the federation fleet.
 

Mastikator

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  1. Make vassals/protectorates/tributaries/subsidiares retain all AI benefits so that they don't implode from missmanagement
  2. Feudal Empire gives more direct control over vassals, IE you tax them 50% on all surplus resources but you also pay 50% of all of their planetary and system upkeep
  3. Feudal Empire gives you 50% of their naval capacity
  4. Feudal Empire gives you 50% of their diplomatic weight
  5. Feudal Empire allows you to immediately take systems from vassals by claiming (they don't like it, may become disloyal)
  6. Vassals of Feudal Empire can expand
  7. Vassals of Feudal Empire are allowed to enter into trade pacts and scientific pacts
  8. Feudal Empire is allowed to build/upgrade/repair Gates inside vassal space
 

Honon

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  1. Make vassals/protectorates/tributaries/subsidiares retain all AI benefits so that they don't implode from missmanagement
  2. Feudal Empire gives more direct control over vassals, IE you tax them 50% on all surplus resources but you also pay 50% of all of their planetary and system upkeep
  3. Feudal Empire gives you 50% of their naval capacity
  4. Feudal Empire gives you 50% of their diplomatic weight
  5. Feudal Empire allows you to immediately take systems from vassals by claiming (they don't like it, may become disloyal)
  6. Vassals of Feudal Empire can expand
  7. Vassals of Feudal Empire are allowed to enter into trade pacts and scientific pacts
  8. Feudal Empire is allowed to build/upgrade/repair Gates inside vassal space
I think that makes Feudal Empire to over tuned. 50% force limit is way to high for starters. I agree with making subjects keep ai bonuses (or at least some percentage of them). I also agree with 6. Many of the rest seems like it would be better done as part of a general vassal rework without need of making it part of a vassal civic.

First of all, feudal empire should get back the "vassals can expand" thing. That was the main point I liked that civic in the past.
Then the vassals should have to pay taxes. 25% minerals & energy (like a tributary) and a part of their force limit. Maybe 20%?

This would essentially combine the good things about tributaries (paying tribute) and vassals (joining your wars). And the force limit contribution (+ reduced liberty desire) would allow for a different playstyle: Keeping your own "demesne" small(ish) and relying on vassals instead. Kind of how you'd imagine a feudal empire.

It would be a bit more of a direct approach to the "Tributary Hegemony" (where all your Hegemony Subjects are also your Tributaries). Normally you can't call Tributaries into wars, but you can call them in as part of your Hegemony and you do get some of their force limit in form of the federation fleet.
I don't agree with vassals paying taxes though. It renders tributaries superfluous. Further I think you should have to chose between subjects which makes the game interesting. I do think vassals paying part of their force limit is a good idea. Another general vassal thing here that should be considered is making it easier to use the subjugation casus belie. Perhaps you can use a partial subjugation casus belie where you have claims over an enemy planet.

One thing I would add is that, perhaps Feudal Empire should be made into an Origin instead of a civic. The Origin would be something like this "vassals and tributaries can expand, reduce liberty desire in subjects b x%. Start with one vassal empire of the same ethos as your nation". If you wanted the start to be slightly harder start you could make it one protectorate instead of a vassal, or you could make the ethics of the vassal into one random non-xenophobe empire.
 

tobias.mb

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I don't agree with vassals paying taxes though. It renders tributaries superfluous. Further I think you should have to chose between subjects which makes the game interesting.
That was my whole point. The ability to combine the benefits from subject types (instead of having to choose one) would be what that civic is about.

Start with one vassal empire
This would be completely overpowerd. A second Homeworld (and all the pops on it) practically for free would be by far the best origin.
 

CrazyJ

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This would be completely overpowerd. A second Homeworld (and all the pops on it) practically for free would be by far the best origin.
when compared to shattered ring or scion it's not really that bad.especially if that you have it set that the vassal loses a large chunk of their starting pops to account for their losses to you in the war where you vassalized them.you'd have to lose some pops to account for your losses too, and even the loss of two or three pops that early is a serious hit. that would balence it sufficiently to make it at least on par with other options
 

Culann

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First, the expansion part would be a neat idea if you can find a decently habitable planet that isn't in your home sector then you have to wait long enough for the planet to develop before they can even expand on their own and by that time it's usually too late. Expansion part of the civic is too niche and really only useful for those few times where you have territory you can't immediately grab due to admin or not enough influence that can't be claimed by other empires. Now that's off my chest.

I think the Devs need to make feudal vassals different from other vassals/tributaries and in a way where it isn't too similar to hegemony federations or have this civic interact better with the current vassals/tributary system. Personally I'm for making them different somehow the civic denotes at least to me that the civilization that has the civic developed along the lines of a interstellar feudal empire such as Dune or the Inner Sphere in the Battletech universe.. Makes more sense to turn this in to an origin similar to that of on common ground or hegemon and just change how feudal vassals work probably something that allows a little bit more direct involvement in territory but without direct control other Paradox games have systems that could be adopted. I'd like something with little bit more influence with some say over how the state is ran, the ability to pay for buildings and or destroy them with limited access to resources. Though I'd expect some penalties and the feudal estates having some sort of effect on the player's empire.

The second option is to make the civic give the player a much bigger bonus integrating vassals.

I think doing anything else would be somewhat pointless. There is no point in this game where a created vassal is going to be more useful than a subjugated ai empire and unless you plan on subjugating them really early there is little need to allow a vassal to expand and tributaries offer a different kind of vassal. Having vassals as autonomous semi-independent states is pretty much the same as having a hegemonic federation. Feudal vassals being any of those is superfluous.
 
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Archael90

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Feudals should pay taxes of all resources (and naval cap) to their overlord, and their whole diplomatic power should be transfered to overlord.
 

Wintermist

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I would like to see different reasons to keep vassals. One would be to change their ethics etc to become "acceptable" to govern themselves again and once ready released from the vassalage. Other reasons could be to feed off them because you're stronger but don't care to invest in conquering them, so you basically force them into paying you. Well the list goes on.

I would personally love to be able to influence the government ethics of my vassals for RP purposes alone.
 
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Ovan

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First, you need to make vassals useful to have. Right now there's not point having a bunch of tall empires when you can have just one big wide empire.
I think this is by large a good answer, expanding vassal types and their usefulness is a dire need right now and it's a shame nothing came of vassals with the diplomacy update. Only reason to really have a vassal right now would be if you don't feel like managing the new incoming planets or if you don't want other ethics.
 

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How would you rework the feudal empire civic? I think the role playing aspect of this civic could be awesome but would like to hear people’s ideas for making it a fun civic.
I've thought it might be interesting if Feudal Empire became a major conversion civic, in the vein of Inward Perfection, and only be available at empire creation.

It would allow for only 2 sectors: core + 1 in development, while also penalizing fringe worlds enough to prevent players from ignoring the limit and simply playing with tons of fringe worlds.

The point being, after a sector is set up the way a player wants, it must be released as a vassal before the player can create an additional sector.

As for the payoff ... well, it could really be a number of things. I'm not sure what would really be balanced, but it should probably be a some kind of bonus(es) based on the number of vassal states.

Such as:
+% to naval capacity per vassal
+% to admin capacity per vassal
+% to trade value per vassal

Possibly counter-balanced with something like:
-% to unity per vassal
-0.1 influence per vassal

This all seems, IMHO, like a potentially fun way to play tall-ish while painting the map.
 
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Honon

First Lieutenant
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First, the expansion part would be a neat idea if you can find a decently habitable planet that isn't in your home sector then you have to wait long enough for the planet to develop before they can even expand on their own and by that time it's usually too late. Expansion part of the civic is too niche and really only useful for those few times where you have territory you can't immediately grab due to admin or not enough influence that can't be claimed by other empires. Now that's off my chest.

I think the Devs need to make feudal vassals different from other vassals/tributaries and in a way where it isn't too similar to hegemony federations or have this civic interact better with the current vassals/tributary system. Personally I'm for making them different somehow the civic denotes at least to me that the civilization that has the civic developed along the lines of a interstellar feudal empire such as Dune or the Inner Sphere in the Battletech universe.. Makes more sense to turn this in to an origin similar to that of on common ground or hegemon and just change how feudal vassals work probably something that allows a little bit more direct involvement in territory but without direct control other Paradox games have systems that could be adopted. I'd like something with little bit more influence with some say over how the state is ran, the ability to pay for buildings and or destroy them with limited access to resources. Though I'd expect some penalties and the feudal estates having some sort of effect on the player's empire.

The second option is to make the civic give the player a much bigger bonus integrating vassals.

I think doing anything else would be somewhat pointless. There is no point in this game where a created vassal is going to be more useful than a subjugated ai empire and unless you plan on subjugating them really early there is little need to allow a vassal to expand and tributaries offer a different kind of vassal. Having vassals as autonomous semi-independent states is pretty much the same as having a hegemonic federation. Feudal vassals being any of those is superfluous.
That is why I suggested starting off with a vassal. You skip most of that if you start with a vassal.

That was my whole point. The ability to combine the benefits from subject types (instead of having to choose one) would be what that civic is about.


This would be completely overpowerd. A second Homeworld (and all the pops on it) practically for free would be by far the best origin.
Hegemons give you three homeworlds as does voidborn. One vassal, potentially with fewer starting pops would not be overpowered or even the strongest of the current origins.

If you have the Feudal civic, every vassal should provide +0.5 influence.
I am very suspicious this would be overpowered. This would make the Feudal Civic by far the largest contributor of influence in the game. 6 one planet vassals would grant 3 influence. Perhaps granting up to 1 influence based on the total empire sprawl of you vassals as a percentage of your empire sprawl.
 
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