Ferocious Soldiers Roaring: MP Megacampaign

[King of Men]

Yes. It seems that they disappear when Dano doesn't connect his laptop to the game. Unfortunately, of course, Falador kind of relies on that laptop to play, so this offers the rather disappointing prospect of exchanging Japan for Spain.

A possibility is that the LAN is interacting badly with the hosting; perhaps, with Fivoin hosting next week, it'll work better. If not, I propose that we make Falador get a dang job so he can afford his own Internet.

 

[Irsh Faq]

He can have one of mine as long as I get a regular kickback out of the paycheck!

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Ohh splendid! A Volunteer!

So what do you wish to play as, Mr. BonAparte?

(might I suggest Kongo? -they actually have some decent chances. -and good allies, if you can do your diplomatic footwork..-and I'd hate to see the ManEaters disappear....)

Haha, I can try as Kongo if you like, what do I need to do to join your game?

 

[Matnjord]

Arise, children of the Fatherland;
your day of glory has arrived!
Tyranny's bloody banner
is raised against us.
Do you hear, in the marches,
ferocious soldiers roaring?

And I just realized you were quoting my national anthem for the games tittles:wub:

Where is this translation from?

 

[King of Men]

It's the translation on the Wiki page, slightly modified to suit my tastes.

Haha, I can try as Kongo if you like, what do I need to do to join your game?

Well, you'll need the mod we're playing; Dano will PM you the link and instructions. Then, you need four hours every Saturday, from 1000 to 1400 Eastern US time. You should also get an account at Ederon; I'll PM you the link. You will likely find it useful to install TeamSpeak if you haven't already; even if you don't have a microphone, a lot of rehost instructions and whatnot go over voice chat, so being able to hear is good even if you can't speak. Finally, when you've got all that, try to arrange a test session with Dano during the week, so we can iron out any problems with your router and whatnot. Have you played AoD MP before?

 

[Matnjord]

Aah, so it's actually the wikipedia page that is incorrect, as "patrie" which is translated as "fatherland" should be translated as "motherland" since "patrie" is a feminine word in french (we actually do say "mère patrie" literally "motherland"). I guess it has too much of a communist connotation nowadays.

Back on topic:when will those ferocious soldiers start roaring? When will the Kataphrakt tanks crush the skulls of the enemies of Rome? When will Punjab achieve its manifest destiny and achieve its mission to redeem the World? When will the nukes fall?

 

[King of Men]

Um, well, this Saturday we played until the 2nd of January 1936. So, you know, progress is being made...

Touching 'patrie', while the word is feminine in the grammatical sense, I think 'fatherland' is the correct translation; it is clearly cognate with Latin 'pater' and English 'father'. The grammar bears very little relation to the actual meanings of words; in Norwegian, for example, 'jente', meaning 'girl', is masculine, and 'fedreland', 'fatherland', is neuter. (I trust you would not on that account translate it as "the neutercountry"...) In fact the grammarians who observed the classification into three types of noun would have been a lot better off choosing some neutral nomenclature like "classes A, B, C", and not loading down their field with a lot of irrelevant connotations.

 

[Matnjord]

But in french it is not only feminine in the grammatical sense, but also in its culture. Not only the country is referred to as mother (probably related to mother nature or whatnot, remember, France was a nation of peasants), but is also represented as a women (see our national emblem, Marianne and its widespread use in the 19th century). It is true that this personification of France is linked to the French Revolution, it was after all heavily scorned by the monarchist and bonapartist, but, since we are talking about the Marseillaise it would be more appropriate to use Motherland.

Now, as a genuine question, then why is motherland acceptable when it comes to Russia? After all both french and russian refer to it as a feminine person.

Well, about "Neutercountry", isn't that what "homeland" stands for? But it doesn't quite have the same nationalistic charm to it and takes off the personification of the nation, very bad when you want to write a militaristic and nationalist song.

 

[Irsh Faq]

Touching 'patrie', while the word is feminine in the grammatical sense, I think 'fatherland' is the correct translation; it is clearly cognate with Latin 'pater' and English 'father'. The grammar bears very little relation to the actual meanings of words; in Norwegian, for example, 'jente', meaning 'girl', is masculine, and 'fedreland', 'fatherland', is neuter.

Speaking as a trained classicist ( ) I can add that the likely direct source of the word, Latin patria, "native land" is also feminine in grammatical gender (but directly related to Latin pater, "father," and more literally translated as "fatherland" than "motherland," though it is occasionally used to translate either word into Latin).

So the Latin word can mean either fatherland or motherland (more naturally the former) and one might guess that - while the dialect of Latin now spoken in the rebellious Gallic provinces is clearly somewhat estranged from the mother tongue - it may yet be correct to translate patrie either way as well.

-edit- Looking at dictionaries it appears that the most common translation of patrie is neutral "homeland" - same as the Latin root. Although that would not really be a natural translation in context.

 

[OrangeYoshi]

I'd believe the French guy on whether the French anthem says fatherland or motherland, not Irsh or KoM. Your arguments against his are, quite literally, worthless.

 

[King of Men]

Well, if the French want to speak of "the mother Fatherland", that's their business; as we all know, depending on the time of day... But more seriously, a translation has to take into account not only what the original says, but also the connotations in the target language. The Marseillaise is a martial song urging its listeners to take up arms, enlist, and throw the foreigners coming to rape their women and take their stuff back into the sea. In that context, 'fatherland', in English, makes a lot more sense. 'Motherland' has connotations of birthplace, love of place, amber waves of grain; 'fatherland' speaks of armies, martial virtue, and giving Johnny Foreigner a damn good thrashin'. Never mind French idiom, 'motherland' just does not belong in an English translation of the Marseillaise; it may be linguistically correct but it's poetically wrong. Of course, if you were trying to get the literal denotation of the French words, that would be a different translation altogether; but that's not usually the aim when translating poetry, where you instead try to get the connotations and associations right - sometimes, admittedly, at the cost of some violence to the exact meaning.

A different example: Consider Ibsen's national epic, "Terje Vigen". In Norwegian it opens "Der bodde en underlig gråspreng en, på den ytterste nøgne ø". This is conventionally translated "There lived a strangely gray-haired one, on the outermost windblown isle." Now, that 'nøgne' would, if translated literally, become 'naked'; and this would make just as much sense and have the same scansion properties. So why 'windblown'? Because 'naked' in English doesn't have the same connotations, perhaps because not a lot of people in English-speaking countries live on islands exposed to the North Sea wind and know how barren they are. Also, 'naked' in English more usually applies to human rather than geographical bodies; it's not wrong to use it of an island, but it just feels a tiny bit off. So the translator goes for 'windblown' because this can be more easily used as descriptive of an island without causing the reader to stop, even for a tenth of a second, and say (perhaps below the level of conscious attention) "hang on a minute". And note that this all applies to a word in which the English and the Norwegian are cognates with the same literal meaning! In the same way, 'motherland' isn't wrong as a translation of 'patrie'; it just isn't quite right, either. In translating poetry these nuances are important.

worthless

I will agree so far as to say that they are worth what you paid for them.

 

[Matnjord]

"The French commonly refer to 'la mère Patrie' as France and are ready to die for her"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherland#Motherland

I'm not a native english speaker myself; but the only times I've read/heard the word motherland was in some pretty nationalists contexts, especially refering to Russia (or Rodina in that case). Fatherland on the other hand seems to be always linked in one way or another to Germany, never read an angloamerican refer to his country like that, but please, do prove me wrong on that point if you think I am. Both of them strike me as very militaristic.


To OY. What we are trying to determine is which one of them translates best the spirit of the song, which one would be more relevant in the english culture. If Kom can prove to me that Motherland implies a happy and bucolic landscape and not a horde of angry frenchmen (or angry russians, as they seem to be usually allowed to scream motherland in english translations) charging with their bayonets then I'll accept his position.

So the Latin word can mean either fatherland or motherland (more naturally the former) and one might guess that - while the dialect of Latin now spoken in the rebellious Gallic provinces is clearly somewhat estranged from the mother tongue - it may yet be correct to translate patrie either way as well.

But the not rebellious at all Italian version also says "Patria", a feminin noun. Though Italy doesn't have any kind of personification of its nation. Unlike Spain, another latin nation, who also refers to her country as "Madre Patria", ie motherland this time for more than a simple grammatical reason. Seems like only the northern countries use fatherland (aaand I know, latin america, but let's keep it european, shall we?).

 

[OrangeYoshi]

To OY. What we are trying to determine is which one of them translates best the spirit of the song, which one would be more relevant in the english culture. If Kom can prove to me that Motherland implies a happy and bucolic landscape and not a horde of angry frenchmen (or angry russians, as they seem to be usually allowed to scream motherland in english translations) charging with their bayonets then I'll accept his position.

Please. Do not let your analysis or facts get in the way of my ankle biting.

I did not read all of the previous posts. In fact, I have not even read the entirety of this quote. I just saw "OY" and then some sort of reasonable discourse, which I quickly ignored.

In the end, Matnjord is correct, Irsh and KoM are full of classical literature crap, and I am always right.

 

[King of Men]

Well, this is a matter of feel for the language, not something I can prove by linking to a study. So, all the evidence I can offer is kind of subjective, and for all I know a different speaker of English might feel a bit differently. With that disclaimer, some examples:

• The main use of "mother country" in English seems to be in the context of colonies; ie the British Isles are the mother country.
• As a general rule - this one doesn't just apply to English, obviously - male goes with militaristic, female goes with nurturing. Feel free to add the needed amount of exceptions and pinches of salt here, but this is the trend.
• The most famous use of 'fatherland' is, of course, Germany in the 1930s.
• Russian has two words for 'the homeland', of which 'Rodina' is usually translated, indeed, 'Motherland'. But it's not obvious to me that this occurs mainly in a militaristic context. The first hit for 'Rodina' on youtube is "The Motherland Hears", which seems more sentimental than aggressive.
• As you say, Mother Nature; a female personification of a country generally goes with usually more about giving birth to future generations and feeding them, than about fighting. Kipling in one of his more sententious poems has the British Isles say "My arm is nothing weak, my strength is not gone by; Sons, I have borne many sons, but my dugs are not dry." Marianne, in charging the Bastille, is somewhat unusual.

 

[Matnjord]

Since I can't come up with a more convincing argument, I'll concede you victory KoM, you've convinced me.

Marianne, in charging the Bastille, is somewhat unusual.

I suppose you're talking about this Marianne, right? If yes, it's about the fights in Paris during the Revolution of July in 1830. Otherwise I can't see where you got this image in your mind.

 

[Irsh Faq]

Please. Do not let your analysis or facts get in the way of my ankle biting.

I did not read all of the previous posts. In fact, I have not even read the entirety of this quote. I just saw "OY" and then some sort of reasonable discourse, which I quickly ignored.

In the end, Matnjord is correct, Irsh and KoM are full of classical literature crap, and I am always right.

I may be full of classical literature crap, but what was on display here was merely classical language crap

 

[von_Rundstedt]

[*] The most famous use of 'fatherland' is, of course, Germany in the 1930s.

I assume you mean "most famous in the English-speaking world". Note that its use has a much older tradition, dating back to the liberal revolution of 1848 and beyond. I've never considered "Vaterland" to have negative connotations, unlike many other words which were sadly abused by the nazis.

 

[Matnjord]

I assume you mean "most famous in the English-speaking world". Note that its use has a much older tradition, dating back to the liberal revolution of 1848 and beyond. I've never considered "Vaterland" to have negative connotations, unlike many other words which were sadly abused by the nazis.

We are discussing a translation in the english language of the word "patrie", so yes, KoM means "in the english-speaking world", as I also did.

Just out of curiosity, what would be those "sadly abused" word (assuming those words won't bring the moderators wrath upon us)?

 

[King of Men]

I assume you mean "most famous in the English-speaking world". Note that its use has a much older tradition, dating back to the liberal revolution of 1848 and beyond.

Yes, fair enough. I was speaking of English. In Norwegian, for example, one may refer to 'fedrelandet' without that particular connotation.

 

[OrangeYoshi]

I may be full of classical literature crap, but what was on display here was merely classical language crap

lol