Female Anti-Pope?!

[ShiaoPi]

Soo I just played another session in the demo when a really weird oddity appeared.
A female Anti-Pope (residing in rome nevertheless). All hail Pope Livinia I.

The weirdest thing is yet to come as shown in the previous screen I was actually able to marry her as a count and it pretty much broke gamebalance as I started to get a massive influx of church taxes as "controller of the anti-pope" as shown here:

I do hope that this bug only occured due to being a demo version, which I modded for startdate 666
The Anti-Pope was the daughter of the previous pope so it may have been related to that. But I just wanted to share this funny situation

 

[unmerged(67185)]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan

Historical example

 

[Bertouch]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan

Historical example

Faux historical example.

 

[unmerged(67185)]

Faux historical example.

is a matter of discussion :sleep:

 

[Tilarium]

This does touch on something that bugged me. Bishops and Popes and such getting married and having kids. Is there a way to nip this in the bud so it doesn't happen?

 

[Heyomif]

This does touch on something that bugged me. Bishops and Popes and such getting married and having kids. Is there a way to nip this in the bud so it doesn't happen?

But it did happen

 

[Slaxl]

Maybe then there should be an event/decision that forces religious folk to be celibate, and even then they should still be horny devils who get up to no good.

 

[Rambo]

is a matter of discussion :sleep:

Celibacy of Priests and Bishops was not instituted until some point in the middle ages (not sure when), but actually it is a misconception that this was always the case. It was totally normal and acceptable for much of the history of the catholic church for priests and bishops to marry and have children.

 

[ghengilhar]

I can see this making it to the soon to be opened "Strange Screenshots"

 

[Federalist girl]

I can see this making it to the soon to be opened "Strange Screenshots"

....Maybe I should post a picture of my Byzantine Empress marrying the Islamic Caliph. Talk about powerful alliances....

 

[CirMag]

Celibacy of Priests and Bishops was not instituted until some point in the middle ages (not sure when), but actually it is a misconception that this was always the case. It was totally normal and acceptable for much of the history of the catholic church for priests and bishops to marry and have children.

It was heavily frowned upon, but not necessarily banned for much of the church's history. It was acceptable to have been married, but not to be married, even worse was to become married, though even that wasn't necessarily a bar to higher levels, exceptions existed. Gregorian Reforms btw were 1070s, the start of the time frame. That wasn't the introduction of celibacy, but a renewed effort to enforce it. It also was not an end to married priests.
An interesting idea could be banning priests from becoming married, but have an event that causes a priest to get married, possibly linking it to moral authority, and of course the traits of the priest.

So lustful, or probably any fertility increasing trait, increases the likelihood of having a mistress/lover. Then authority/traits increase likelihood of getting married. Maybe even have a priest getting married cause moral authority to decrease, based on the title of the priest. Pope getting married hurts a lot, bishop-prince hurts a bit, the count level has an effect, but not much, Baron level doesn't even get noticed.

 

[HolisticGod]

Boy, this one keeps popping up to be brained with a mallet like whack-a-mole. I wonder if there were betas so keen on specious revisionism and that's why we have Popes marrying into the Roman Imperial Family.

To the contrary, marriage after holy orders and cohabitation of any kind, even with one's pre-ordination wife, was forbidden as early as the Council of Nicea. The notion that it was commonplace, acceptable or even "not against the rules" for priests, let alone bishops, to marry and sire legitimate children is largely the product of reform Catholicism, which has the noble (if somewhat misguided) aim of reversing the Church's most anachronistic strictures. Better, of course, to change the Church honestly or to leave it, if only to avoid my having to have this argument every single day.

Of course, bishops and popes sometimes had mistresses (and/or misters) and illegitimate children. This can modeled through bastardy.

All bishops and the Pope, in particular, should be barred from marriage. If married prior to appointment to a bishopric, a "secular" character should automatically "divorce," for simplicity's sake. Children, I hope it goes without saying, should have no claim, even through pretense, to their father's ecclesiastical possessions.

And no, we probably shouldn't have female anti-popes either.

 

[the_legion]

until some point in the middle ages

It was "forbidden" since 1139, but happened well after it. So i'd say one should
disallow it some 1200ish from game viewpoint. Would make a nice feature for
a playable papacy to enact such decissions btw...

 

[Alerias]

I dont care about the Catholic Church, but if theres a way to legitimately get all the Papal income from bishops who hate their liege, just count me in, or tell me who my 29 Intrigue spymaster has to kill...

 

[CirMag]

I dont care about the Catholic Church, but if theres a way to legitimately get all the Papal income from bishops who hate their liege, just count me in, or tell me who my 29 Intrigue spymaster has to kill...

Make an anti-pope. Playing with the time-modded demo, I at one point was getting over 100 gold a month. I was building baronies in my vassal's vassal's counties, cause I had nothing to use it on.

After that I came to the decision that I will not use the anti-pope mechanic in an actual game. Now just waiting for it to unlock.

 

[Swuul]

And no, we probably shouldn't have female anti-popes either.

The OP uses a modded demo version, which prolly explains that.

Clerical marriages were not forbidden until 1139 when Pope Innocent II confirmed the decree for that. However, in 15th century an estimated 50% of all priests were still married, and it wasn't until the Council of Trent (1563) that catholic priests were forced to choose to either be celibate or to lose their priest status.

Celibacy for catholic priests happened during CK2 time period, but it was ultra rare. The game has the trait "Celibate" for those rare individuals.

 

[Alerias]

Make an anti-pope. Playing with the time-modded demo, I at one point was getting over 100 gold a month. I was building baronies in my vassal's vassal's counties, cause I had nothing to use it on.

After that I came to the decision that I will not use the anti-pope mechanic in an actual game. Now just waiting for it to unlock.

Huh, right, you just reminded me antipopes have a feature I forgot about. They can get income from outside their realm, right? That's rather nice.

They do come with some steep limitations though. Ive had a couple antis so far but I always found cause to rapidly solve the conflict by helping them take over the real papacy in short order.

I guess I should consider actually just keeping an antipope with nice stats and traits around for income's sake.

The 'ability' to get an antipope's income through marriage without having the real Pope hate you for it seems superior tho

 

[Trashed]

Untill the early 1000's only the most devout were celibate with most priests and bishops getting married, having children, etc. Celibacy was later enforced through an especially dilligent pope and became the norm somewhere in the 1200's.

 

[CirMag]

Huh, right, you just reminded me antipopes have a feature I forgot about. They can get income from outside their realm, right? That's rather nice.

They do come with some steep limitations though. Ive had a couple antis so far but I always found cause to rapidly solve the conflict by helping them take over the real papacy in short order.

I guess I should consider actually just keeping an antipope with nice stats and traits around for income's sake.

The 'ability' to get an antipope's income through marriage without having the real Pope hate you for it seems superior tho

Who cares if the pope hates you, you have an anti-pope, you're protected from all papal actions, and as you can select a high diplo successor, you can keep it going.

 

[HolisticGod]

Jarkko,

That's simply not true. Entering marriages after holy orders was forbidden as early as the founding of the Imperial Church. Existing marriages were to be "continent," i.e. celibate, and by the fall of the Empire in the West, cohabitation even with continence was forbidden, on the argument that, er, well, a man and a woman who sleep in the same house, are married, and have had sexual relations in the past are probably going to keep on having them.

What Gregory did was compel the Bishops to enforce canon law. It wasn't necessary to alter it. The same was true of the Lateran Council. And the notion that Trent was the source of compulsory celibacy is nonsense.

Of course, law and practice are different things, and if we had priests represented in the game, we could make an argument over concubinage and the practice of Nicolaitism. Fortunately, we deal only with ruling bishops and at that level, find me some examples of legitimately married (post-holy orders) bishops with legitimate children (post-holy orders) during the time period.