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BCGaius

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I've played a few games now to where I feel like I have a feel for how Steel Division plays compared to Red Dragon. There's things I like or have at least gotten the hang of; I think tank combat is significantly improved over Red Dragon and it's pretty satisfying for the most part (a few balance issues aside), I 'get' the AA and air combat play and find it pretty fun, and the game as a whole is really cool and is almost exactly what I wanted from a Eugen WW2 Wargame.

One aspect is really starting to bug me, however: Infantry combat and how it's balanced with the rest of the game. While it's hugely improved over Red Dragon (where infantry were utterly useless outside town blocks or forests), I feel like there's a lot still to be desired. Luckily, I think a few small tweaks would probably improve things a lot further.

  • Non-mechanized units are at a massive disadvantage
This is a somewhat frustrating, self-compounding problem that ties into divisional balance. Phase A: Non-mechanized division brings in vulnerable truck-borne infantry. A mechanized or fully-armored division brings in protected halftrack infantry. The latter has a huge advantage in securing initial positions and getting territory, which, ok, fair enough, thanks to the natural superiority of the halftracks in getting their infantry safely into good positions. Not necessarily a huge problem, since A) Halftrack squads tend to be expensive and B) Phase A income for mechanized/armored divisions tends to be relatively bad.

However, this problem gets compounded twice. The first problem is the halftracks' machine guns. They are way too effective right now, and it absolutely crushes even elite infantry squads, especially when the halftrack's own infantry squad is also attacking. While the game liberally hands out infantry AT to most line infantry teams and even some recon and specialist AT teams, infantry AT is (understandably) of pretty anemic range and often limited effectiveness. It's great for knocking out tanks which are stupid enough to get close to buildings/green cover, but both ammo and range are extremely limited and it's just not practical to engage attacking halftracks with them unless the halftracks also stupidly blunder into point-blank range.

Suggested fix: Tone down halftrack MGs. This is the main, critical point of the problem that is also easily remedied.

The second problem is that by their very nature, mechanized infantry teams are virtually always supported with light armor from the same deck, whereas non-mechanized decks have little to no armored support in Phase A and are entirely reliant on vulnerable truck-borne crew-served heavy weapons. While they seem to have decent if unimpressive Phase A options (such as Luftlande's PaK38 and schwere-MG teams), they have limited availability and these teams are extremely vulnerable. They come in soft transports which are easy to interdict and have terrible off-road, making just getting their units in position a pain, and the units themselves are easily erased and vulnerable to just being crew-killed down from attrition and any bullet or explosion that looks at them funny. However, these units are critical for supporting the similarly-vulnerable infantry against opposing Phase A light armor and halftracks. Once they're gone, Phase A is basically lost for the non-mechanized player.

Suggested fixes: Allow reinforcing of crew-served weapons? I mean, if a platoon of infantry is getting pinned down by enemy armored vehicles at long range, and the AT gun next to them is sitting idle because all of its original crew got knocked out... they're just gonna sit there and wait to die instead of keeping that gun firing? Allowing supply vehicles (or even infantry squads, if that's possible) to reinforce crew-served infantry weapons would mitigate the problem of losing critical support weapons to raw attrition from extended fighting -- extended, drawn-out fighting is something infantry divisions should be better at, not worse!

  • Infantry combat is still too lethal
While there's been significant improvement from Red Dragon, infantry teams still get straight up obliterated a little too easily, I think. It's improved in that this sometimes takes a little while as the team gets visibly blasted from 9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-welpthey'redead-0 instead of getting instantly annihilated in RD. Now, the following opinion I'm sure will result in a lot of things getting thrown at me, but I'm of the opinion that I think the only way an infantry team should be reliably killed in-game is by assaulting it at point-blank range (ideally with opposing infantry, but a riskier play of assaulting with a tank could work in a pinch too). Either the defending infantry will surrender under the stress and the assault (which already seems to be working pretty well, currently), or they'll just get wiped out. Long-range fire should be much less effective than it currently is in causing damage to the squad, and a slight reduction in stress might also be in order so it's less trivial to pin down a squad.

I think the best way to improve the infantry combat would have been to model foxholes, digging in, and the ability for infantry to take cover almost anywhere, but that may be beyond the scope of what changes are possible at this point. So, I'll try to suggest some more practical solutions.

Suggested improvements: Significantly reduce effectiveness of long-range fire at infantry teams, especially damage, but also stress. This better emphasizes the surrendering mechanic and the need to pin down enemy infantry and assault their positions with infantry of your own, rather than just erasing them with impunity from range. Smoke, mortars, suppressive fire, and fire & maneuver tactics thus surround the core fighting between infantry squads, enhancing the infantry game.

Additionally, I'd also suggest the ability for infantry teams (but probably not crew-served weapon teams) to gain yellow cover if they stop moving, even in the open. This represents the fact that infantry lying prone amidst terrain are not exactly easy to shoot (or even see) at long range, and it gives infantry much-need viability (albeit still subpar) outside of green cover/buildings.

  • Conclusion
I don't claim to have been the best Wargame player ever or the best Steel Division player now, and I'm sure there exist skilled players who can do well with poorly-supported non-motorized divisions like 91. Luftlande. But I think there is a fundamental issue at the core of infantry gameplay and a lopsided balance issue between mechanized and non-mechanized forces right now which could be fixed and vastly improved pretty easily. I really like Steel Division -- I just want to see it fully break free of some of Wargame's less endearing qualities and become as awesome as it can!
 

Rearden

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I haven't played enough of this game (or the WG series) to have a strong opinion on this topic or your suggested improvements, but this is a really well written post and I hope it gets seen by the devs. Great feedback.
 

Baane

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I have not played the game as of yet. Do infantry squads have a Rifle Grenadier? While warheads such as the M9 HEAT grenade had iffy performance against certain armor, it should help against light armor and halftracks.
 

BrotherPedro

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Infantry with real anti tank weapon like bazooka and panzershreck are getting clowned by light armor. Rifle grenade is not going to do much. The problem is they are never going to get in range unless in an ambush scenario.
 

Vyllis

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Infantry get pinned too fast from those half track; 1 mistake and its over:
I would like see my infantry fire back versus open top half tracks and vehicles (Giving it critical (gunner killed) or making it suppressed).
I would like to see the MG suppression toned down a little bit to give me a chance to go back into cover 2 meters away.

Indeed is sometimes difficult to retreat or manoeuvring because your boy get "insta-pinned then killed" so fast, especially in the open or if they move 1 unlucky foot out of the hedgerow.
However, its still best than WG RD and this is a good thing.


Also the fact that you can't merge understrength squad to get back into the fight with full strength, instead of fighting with 2 men squad everywhere, DOES NOT help at all !


I would indeed like to build some sort of foxholes but i can't see this happening.
Maybe, like in the old Blitzkrieg game; having a "lay down/prone" button that make them like pinned, but with extremely slow speed, very bad vision/sight and a concealment & defence bonus (mostly versus shells and long range heavy weapons fire. Small firearms and close range heavy weapons should still deal with them correctly, for gameplay sanity).

This would make the infantry able to crawl slowly into cover and even shoot back if something get wrong.

In open field they will be able to prone and hide a bit more from armour while waiting the storm to pass (or get caught close).
 
Last edited:

CyberianK

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I agree with most of your points but the main issue you have with mechanized transports is a bit moot when the most effective Division by far in beta in infantry combat is scots who don't have access to mech transports. I would be fine with a MG nerf but then you'd have to massively reduce costs of mech inf units they cost 40-55 while rifles are 20. Reason the scots are so OP cause they can field very good infantry for a few points and win at the inf game while having masses of points left for all their other good toys.
 

Rocksitter

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Wonderful post I had some of these ideas and really hope they look at putting some love in to infantry combat. In the cold war you can get away with it but in the ww2 setting you need to make infantry combat better. A gone to ground action would be nice I dont even care for a animated graphics just a indicator would be fine. I think infantry and tank accuracy and return fire speed are the two glaring issues aside from balance right now.
 

Souroy

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Playing mostly the 91.Luftlande I agree with what has been said.
Having your troops in trucks and said trucks being wrecked by any halftrack is expected, after all they are armored and armed and we're not. So I just unload a bit behind and advance from there. The only problem is that on some cases / map configurations it will make you begin with a malus in owned ground as you simply couldn't deploy farther enough without ending in the HT lof.

After trying the 3rd AD I've been even more surprised with the HTs, with even veterancy 2/3 FS getting pinned, stunned and killed in a matter of seconds. While I can understand their MGs mowing down infantry it's curious that said infantry can't do anything if the HT is not in their AT weapons range, despite the fact that the HT gunner is exposed.

As said by others it would be really nice to have the possibility to suppress open topped vehicles but I can see it being badly implemented.
On a M3 HT, the gunner has nothing to hide and so it would be logically for him to get suppressed if shot on but should a M10 TD, a Bren Carrier or a Marder get suppressed as much, as all these vehicles have their crewmembers better protected than on the M3 HT?
You could also end with one arguing that as the SdKfz 250/251's gunner has a shield it shouldn't be suppressed as much as a M3's gunner, cue "Germans OP", "Allies OP" and all these kind of flame wars (though here we're coming back to the Wargame roots :D).

So while it could be a balance mean to have open-topped vehicles getting suppressed by infantry weapons it should be thought carefully to avoid overdoing it and indirectly nerfing others, apparently fine, units as well as having a form of uniformity to keep the game logical and avoid "one of a kind" examples that may be source of confusion and/or debate.
 
Last edited:

CyberianK

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Playing mostly the 91.Luftlande I agree with what has been said.
Having your troops in trucks and said trucks being wrecked by any halftrack is expected, after all they are armored and armed and we're not. So I just unload a bit behind and advance from there. The only problem is that on some cases / map configurations it will make you begin with a malus in owned ground as you simply couldn't deploy farther enough without ending in the HT lof.
I don't think its an issue with Luft start with Kuebel AT + Kuebel Scout and fast deploy them to the road junction you need to go followed by Kuebel AA and a few Ersatz+Leader. AT kills first halftrack and then the opponent usually ejects. I always get the town initially. Kuebel is faster then halftracks and AT+ AA wreck HTs. That said the Luft has other issues :) https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/91st-air-landing-division-ll-balance.1009526/
 

Vyllis

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Kuebel get spotted and raped from M8, who is faster, protected and best armed.
Sending an entire column of half tracks without something in the front to open the way is risky.

I have wrecked entire columns of 91. trucks with my M8 then retreated before the french tank & AT guns come into the mix.
 

mitchverr

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As I have mainly played non halftrack divisions so far (a little with them but eh) all I can say is I disagree about them being "too much of a pain" myself, I have had very little issues in dealing with it, with the 15th you get honeys and the AVRE/95mm churchill along with PIAT teams and a very experienced 6 pounder crew, this is easily enough firepower to make them run away, as for the mech troops being supported by light tanks, from what I can tell those light tanks are pretty bad, the only tank supporting as of phase A which is hard to fight is the bute firefly, but you just have to deal with that in some way.

Personally, instead of asking for halftracks to be nerfed, I would rather ask for armoured cars in phase B/C get bumped to phase A, in the luft deck they have a fair few light tanks, though 15th only get the honey and need the tank slots for later (luft do get mobile AT guns for phase C and allied armour isnt as starkly diff in this phase). I would like to see the luftbros get some armoured car and for the 15th to have the daimlers in phase A with 1 card of 1 of each, maybe 2 per card and expand from there going into phase B/C. These would give the non armoured decks a bit more of a chance in my view, especially given wheeled = speed to move.

As said above, the M8 seems to be a very strong unit for phase A, I would rather see others get simular items like this which can help fight halftracks, 2 per card would be great imo for added firepower/usefulness per card as imo the armored cars are worthless at 1 per card beyond phase A.

I also dont think infantry combat is too fast either, It goes fairly fine till a large gun is firing, then it can be a bit quick, but if it slows much more it can become a sitskrieg that makes people bring in off map arty simply because 1) its the quick route to winning and 2) infantry are literally stonewalling each other long enough for it to be effective.
 

Baane

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If they're not already, armored infantry squads should be sized in such a way as to take into account that the driver and gunner in the halftracks crew are from the squad.
 

BCGaius

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I agree with most of your points but the main issue you have with mechanized transports is a bit moot when the most effective Division by far in beta in infantry combat is scots who don't have access to mech transports. I would be fine with a MG nerf but then you'd have to massively reduce costs of mech inf units they cost 40-55 while rifles are 20. Reason the scots are so OP cause they can field very good infantry for a few points and win at the inf game while having masses of points left for all their other good toys.

15th Scottish has a ton of mechanized and armor support. They have several Bren carrier squads (including Brens with Vickers), Phase A Stuarts, plentiful tank destroyers, and a gigantic pile of Churchills in both Tank and Support slots. In their current implementation in the game, they might as well be a mechanized division. Combined with their very strong core infantry lineup, they naturally don't suffer much from the problems outlined here.
 

mitchverr

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If they're not already, armored infantry squads should be sized in such a way as to take into account that the driver and gunner in the halftracks crew are from the squad.

US rifles in tracks are 10 man right now but dont come with a machinegun till phase C troops, which are 10 man too (tbh the US infantry is pretty poor anyway, so that isnt an issue) and 12 SS are 10 man squads, with AT, 2 MGs the works. I dont know the real life squad sizes for these 2 countries though, so if you do I hope this helps you get a clear picture of it.
 

CyberianK

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Kuebel get spotted and raped from M8, who is faster, protected and best armed.
Sending an entire column of half tracks without something in the front to open the way is risky.

I have wrecked entire columns of 91. trucks with my M8 then retreated before the french tank & AT guns come into the mix.
You are probably right but I never ever encountered someone using an M8 in initial setup its quite rarely used they probably should do so please don't tell anyone. Oh damn now its too late :)
 

BCGaius

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Personally, instead of asking for halftracks to be nerfed, I would rather ask for armoured cars in phase B/C get bumped to phase A, in the luft deck they have a fair few light tanks, though 15th only get the honey and need the tank slots for later (luft do get mobile AT guns for phase C and allied armour isnt as starkly diff in this phase). I would like to see the luftbros get some armoured car and for the 15th to have the daimlers in phase A with 1 card of 1 of each, maybe 2 per card and expand from there going into phase B/C. These would give the non armoured decks a bit more of a chance in my view, especially given wheeled = speed to move.

As said above, the M8 seems to be a very strong unit for phase A, I would rather see others get simular items like this which can help fight halftracks, 2 per card would be great imo for added firepower/usefulness per card as imo the armored cars are worthless at 1 per card beyond phase A.

I appreciate the feedback, as I haven't played 15th Scottish quite as much as 91. Luftlande. That said, I do not agree with just giving everyone strong Phase A mechanized support. Not only does that dilute divisional variety, but such a ubiquitous counter to halftracks makes halftrack infantry rather pointless, which is not what I'm advocating for. I just want the halftracks to be less of an overpowering presence in combat against a lighter division without stripping away the advantages halftrack infantry should have in terms of aggressive mobility.
 

mitchverr

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I appreciate the feedback, as I haven't played 15th Scottish quite as much as 91. Luftlande. That said, I do not agree with just giving everyone strong Phase A mechanized support. Not only does that dilute divisional variety, but such a ubiquitous counter to halftracks makes halftrack infantry rather pointless, which is not what I'm advocating for. I just want the halftracks to be less of an overpowering presence in combat against a lighter division without stripping away the advantages halftrack infantry should have in terms of aggressive mobility.

I would call scout cars heavy recon support over mech myself and they were extremely common at least for the british, I dont know about it for the Germans however.

It also wouldnt make the halftracks "pointless" as the player owning them still has significant acces to light tanks which are just as good if not better then armoured cars (okay, daimler littlejohn is a contender here) and also the light TD vehicles for 12 SS. having 1, maybe 2 armoured cars wont negate their ability, but it will grant the inf deck some firepower which if used properly gives the player a bit of ability to "do something", it also means the armour guy has to engage the brain a bit and not just "lololol" the halftracks. Currently I am using heavily the honey tanks when I see I am against a 12 SS player for obvious reasons. It would also make the armoured cars finally have a role, as right now I dont think they do outside the phase a M8s.
 

Vyllis

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You do not need to completely nerf them. But if squad A is under fire from a Half track 200-400m away. Squad B should shoot the gunner down or force him to get his head down and stop shooting (open top).

Making them useful as long as you do not get too close with impunity.
Yes: fire support, not Avre like tank.
 

CyberianK

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I think making them EXTREMELY difficult to be affected my MG fire would be fine. That would mean no difference when 1-2 sqads or regular infantry face a halftrack. But like if the halftrack is surrounded by multiples squads or facing overwhelming odds of countless MG troops it does not make them totally useless.
That said it would be a dilution of some of the clearly designed rock-paper-scissors/combined arms gameplay so it should be approached very carefully.