Feedback from a few casual players

[Moltier]

We are a bunch of players, from completely newbies, to moderately experienced players.
We help each other out in multiplayer sessions, and rarely actually fight.

Right before the update, we still played for countless hours, having a blast.
After about 20 hours of playtime in 2.2, we learned how the new system works,
and why it is not fun anymore.

The main problems we have encountered:

1. Imbalance in economy
   
2. Extremely slow gameplay
3. Unfinished AI for the new economy system
4. Unnecessary changes and “features”

Economy imbalance:
Most things cost nearly as much alloy, as minerals before, while we have about ¼ of the income, and still require extra buildings for it.

Slow gameplay:
This applies mainly to non galaxy butcherer/conqueror empires.
Planets grow painfully slowly.
6-8 growth/month (which already requires some work) may looks like a lot
compared to the old system, but now a size 16 planet can have a hundred pops.
Probably even more with all the techs.
It also doesn’t help, that colonizing with normal empires now slows this even further.
In the end, for much more micromanagement, it felt like our colonies advanced like a slug.
Not rewarding at all. In more harsh words, we’ve got a lame planet manager simulator.

AI:
The AI become horrible. Maybe it was always this horrible in wars, but at least it was half decent in economy. Now every single time i conquer a planet, it’s in a horrible state. 40 pop, 80+ jobs. The AI have zero clue how to manage the new economy system.
In aggressive AI mode, hostile empires rarely attack, even if i disband my entire fleet.
Then, if they finally do declare war, two things happen.
Either nothing, or they just bash their tini-tiny fleets against a bastion over and over again.
Also, they don’t seems to backstab as much as before, while you are at war against another.

Features:
Locked building areas in planets.
It makes no sense. Why can i build a huge city district, but not some buildings.
Now we can’t pre build, which results in even more micro management.

Extra technologys:
Why was it necessary to add so many techs, and split them up into tiny fragments?
They are flooding the tech options, and again, slowing down the gameplay.
Just for research bonuses, we have four tech chain now, plus the building upgrade techs (not counting the old and simple +5%).
At least give them some requirements, so they don’t pop up as often.

Pops not working after losing jobs.
Do we really want to go into this kind of depth? It’s just a PITA.

Sectors.
Finally we had sectors that worked well (at least for us) after such a long time.
While i agree that the economy can use an update,
why touch the sector system that works well?
Now we can’t set up the size of the sector, and two completely different planet can end up together.

Building upgrades.
Having bigger buildings doesn’t sound like more advanced.
Like, why do we need gas to build bigger buildings?
(I’m okay with the spec resources for a more advanced version.)
They should simply provide bonuses, like in the old system, for the same amount of jobs.
Like scientist working with advanced equipment for better/quicker results.

Less resources in space.
Oh boy, this is annoying. We are on discord, and keep hearing how bad systems everyone finds.
How realistic is to find a system full of planets, with next to non resources.
I would rather get excited again, when finding 10+ mineral or energy systems, than finding low amount, and then researching for years with repeatables to make up for it.
Right now, it feels keeping holes in an empire is the way to go.

With these current limited possible stations, democracy got a hit.
Building 4 mining or research station isn’t an easy task anymore, even with 4-6 scientist surveying right of the bat. Maybe it was intended, i dunno.

And thats about it. There might be more problems, bugs, but these are the ones that stopped us playing.

 

[Truly_xtreem]

I agree with most things on this list to varying degrees, very much so on the sectors, my least favorite feature, plus I enjoy playing ME for most of my plays and i feel they have been quite hurt in the recent changes either by design or bugs :-(

 

[xsmilingbanditx]

The only thing I can totally agree on is the AI. The other points on the list are (valid) personal opinions.
I did not care about sectors back in the days and I so not care now. There is no reason for their existence except forcing you to get more governors.
I do, in fact, like the slower pacing. When I went for it I started building habitats in the late 2230's and Megas followed 20 or so years later. It just was Minerals->Research->Energy and in 2300 the tech tree was done.
Everything is a little less predictable and dynamic and that's awesome imho.

 

[Triddle]

I’m having a very different experience, and disagree with the majority of your points. AI certainly has issues though - but I’m finding them to be fairly aggressive, at least in the early-mid game. Most of my games have been in a constant state of defensive wars with aggressiveness set to normal. They’re not super effective adversaries for the most part, but they’re certainly aggressive.

 

[Ishae]

I miss sectors. It is nice that they aren’t really required anymore but I miss the functionality. By the time I get to mid/late game I tend to stop caring about every detail in my economy and would just like my sectors to produce *something* without me doing it (call it attention efficiency over economic efficiency). But now sectors no longer gather their own resources so you have to micromanage that anyways, which is just as tedious now that you end up with a bunch of 1 planet sectors...


Incidentally, does dark matter or zro do anything anymore? I haven’t found anything that mentions their benefit or usage.

 

[Triddle]

I miss sectors. It is nice that they aren’t really required anymore but I miss the functionality. By the time I get to mid/late game I tend to stop caring about every detail in my economy and would just like my sectors to produce *something* without me doing it (call it attention efficiency over economic efficiency). But now sectors no longer gather their own resources so you have to micromanage that anyways, which is just as tedious now that you end up with a bunch of 1 planet sectors...


Incidentally, does dark matter or zro do anything anymore? I haven’t found anything that mentions their benefit or usage.

I think there’s an auto build option you can use, might help a little. I’ve been wondering the same thing about dark matter and zro, I have huge stockpiles of the stuff and no use for it.

 

[xsmilingbanditx]

About sectors: one big plus is that I don't have to search hundred-and-a-dozen system where the heck this one special resource that is lacking hides. Because finally, they are global.

 

[Torian Raven]

I agree with the bad AI, bad it looks like there are just a lot of bugs that aren't fixed yet. Played two games with vanilla and now one with glavius AI mod. The differences are huge. The AI is much better in economy and war with the mod. So that's something that will be fixed with the next one or two updates (I really hope so).
The downgrade time for the strata is just way too long and a bit stupid in some situations. Lower happiness for some time and maybe a downgrade of a few month would be better. I had an unemployed specialist, so I thought I'll give him something to do. But no, after building a nice building for him, a worker get the job and the specialist is still unemployed. Now there's an empty worker job too.
I have different feelings about the sectors. In the later versions they worked more or less as they should and added some RP stuff to my games. I like it to make a border region, rename it etc. Now you can't do that anymore (you can rename it but that's all). And you have way too much governors for all that stupid, tiny single planet sectors. But there are also a lot of things about them I don't miss.
Slowering down the gameplay is something I really like. I just love long sessions. A game like Stellaris has to be something you don't finish in a few days. But that's personal taste. Also the requirement for buildings is nice. You have to think a bit about which building you want to upgrade, not just "Oh, new upgrade, click and done". The techs should be a bit more balanced which ones shows up at which time and some could be combined. But again, you have to think a bit and choose, the new laser or better science stations. Slows down a bit the rush through the tech tree. You get everything soon enough.
I can't confirm that the resources in systems are so much lesser now. Maybe I haven't payed enough attention to it, but looks more or less the same amount to me as well. I've found more than one system with +10 energy or minerals.

 

[AlanC9]

I don't see how economic imbalance matters. You've got less minerals now,? Well, so does everyone else. Except crises, but it's not like those are hard to beat.

 

[Silens]

While many disagree with your assessment, Moltier, I am inclined to agree with you in a general manner.

The game has gotten better, so much is evidently clear. But what you and your friends noticed is that the light and easy-to-understand feeling of the game is now lost. For the first time we can't see all economic correlations clearly. Whereas earlier you just built something and staffed it, you are now confronted with many factors that make your life harder.

Wanted more minerals? Make a mine and put a pop on it. You gained minerals and lost nothing. And now? "I have minerals, let's build an alloy foundry" -> Not only will your miners move up to your foundry and use some of your mineral income, they also vacate their mines, dropping your mineral income by a larger amount than you initially thought. And that is just one simple example of how the new economy needs more thought and planning than ever before.

Up to 2.1 we could do just about everything, had influence on every aspect of our empire. Now we are observers to developments. We went from action to reaction. Now we just set the perimeter and react to developments within the borders of our empire. It feels more like managing a country, yes, but this is by far the deepest change to how this game feels. And not everybody likes it.

And here I have to disagree with you, as the slow development is a great thing. I can't expect to have a size 25 colony filled up within a few years. It needs time to populate, time to develop and time to grow. And it is fun to watch, as we finally have something other than war to keep us occupied.

But I agree that the overall economy is not balanced. Buildings and pops eat so much of your resources that there is no palpable gain in income when you expand. Most things you gain are consumed by the very thing you gained. This results in a very slow gameplay, as you usually have not as much resources to spare as earlier. So I agree with you, also on the AI, the sectors (had 11 planets in 9 sectors, with leader costs this was a pain), the lack of resources in space and how the building upgrades are handled.

There is one thing I'd like to add in regard to the economic balance: the galactic market is too powerful, as it has unlimited resources. What should be a place of exchange between empires, is now a never-ending source of all existing resources. "You're the first to find Living Metal in 200 years? That's great, we have ∞ of it in stock! Always had!" "The combined alloy production of all 20 empires is 2000 each month? How quaint, we sell 200000 alloys a day if you pay. As we have, you know, ∞ of it." There needs to be some kind of monthly stock and everything else should be fair game of demand and supply, bidding and selling, single deals and long-term contracts. Right now it is a highly exploitable answer to an imbalanced economy.

I'm optimistic, however, that the devs will balance the whole thing out. Everything else we can change to our liking via mods.

 

[AlanC9]

Wanted more minerals? Make a mine and put a pop on it. You gained minerals and lost nothing. And now? "I have minerals, let's build an alloy foundry" -> Not only will your miners move up to your foundry and use some of your mineral income, they also vacate their mines, dropping your mineral income by a larger amount than you initially thought. And that is just one simple example of how the new economy needs more thought and planning than ever before.

Well, someone will work at that foundry. Doesn't have to be a miner. Depends on where you build the foundry, and who's employed there. And of course, you control that.

Up to 2.1 we could do just about everything, had influence on every aspect of our empire. Now we are observers to developments. We went from action to reaction. Now we just set the perimeter and react to developments within the borders of our empire. It feels more like managing a country, yes, but this is by far the deepest change to how this game feels. And not everybody likes it.

This is a bit silly. Whatever you're having to react to, it's your own doing. Well, unless you've let an alien fleet bomb your main industrial planet to rubble, but that's still your fault.

 

[Ramiren]

This is a bit silly. Whatever you're having to react to, it's your own doing. Well, unless you've let an alien fleet bomb your main industrial planet to rubble, but that's still your fault.

He's talking about how the game feels to play rather than where actual reactions stem from, and I agree. It used to be you could build a strong economy fairly early on and use that as a springboard to start doing all the cool war and diplomacy stuff. Now everything feels super fragile, like no matter what I do I'm going to over extend partly because everything is harder to do now, and partly because the economics are far less transparent meaning it's far harder to make informed judgements about what you can and can't do.

 

[Silens]

Well, someone will work at that foundry. Doesn't have to be a miner. Depends on where you build the foundry, and who's employed there. And of course, you control that.

Yes, someone who - if not unemployed - did something else beforehand. So you prove my point here: It's not about planting a building somewhere and getting a pop on it, but about planning. And in the end you can't control what pop goes where, as the AI manages that.

This is a bit silly. Whatever you're having to react to, it's your own doing. Well, unless you've let an alien fleet bomb your main industrial planet to rubble, but that's still your fault.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I looked I had some new features like housing, crime, stability, unemployment, high upkeep, buildings consuming strategic resources etc. And with the way pops are moved around by the AI, I'm finding myself reacting to certain developments far more than before. You're right, I can choose not to react to a heavy lack of food, but these things happen more often than before.

 

[Hyomoto]

I agree about the galactic market. It should be made up of the minerals being bought and sold on it. Perhaps the owner of the market doesn't have to pay the 30% while selling thus giving them an incentive to help stock the market they are in charge off.

 

[Spaceception]

I'm moderately experienced here, I have less than a thousand hours, and I tend to be more pacifist in my gameplay instead of conquering-ist. Only earlier this summer(?) I started having the ability in defeating the end game crisis.


The slow gameplay picks up after a century or so. Your economy begins looking more robust, and you can start building up in preparations to large-scale wars, and eventually the crisis.
It definitely is little compared to previous versions though, I will say that. I haven't made it to the endgame in my current playthrough, so my opinion may change. But I feel I may be ready, given there's (at least) a bit over a hundred years before the crisis. My mineral production is well over a hundred, my alloy production is almost at seventy, and I'm making almost a couple dozen consumer goods, etc, and I don't have any production edicts going.
Slower planetary development, is, I think, a good thing. Maybe they slowed it down too much. But the idea they're going for is vastly better than when you could have a planet done and over with inside a century. You're constantly developing, and your economy isn't very static. It's in flux.
That makes it more dynamic and interesting, but yeah, it can give you a headache when you screw something up. But at least it gives you more to think of than plopping buildings down. And I'd even say this is less micromanagement... you only need to build districts as you need them, you only need to upgrade buildings as you need them, and there's less to upgrade overall. You do need to keep a closer eye on it sometimes, but you can usually just let it run.

The economy does seem a bit off... again, I need to play more, so my opinion may change, but I know in the current hotfix they have, alloy production is slightly higher. Similar balance tweaks could very well improve this.

I like that you can only build advanced buildings every 5 pops, it balances more, but potentially buffing some of them could help. The labs are probably something that needs to be nerfed, if anything. Those are freaking powerful. However, given the limited slots, it's probably a good thing you can compensate your research with a handful of upgraded labs, so you can focus your economy on other areas. Especially since it does take a while to buff alloy production and stuff.

Maybe city districts could become specialist districts with some spare housing, and you can choose which resource (research, alloys, consumer goods, clerks, etc) to do based on what you need. Then the special buildings provide additional jobs, bonuses, etc. to those resources, can provide even more housing, and can produce other resources (such as unity, or additional luxury goods). This way, you don't have to wait several years or more to increase alloy production and stuff (Actually, I'm going to make a suggestion of this).

Exotic gases to build advanced buildings and such is probably balance related. Again, upgraded buildings can get beefy quickly. Perhaps the first upgrade only requires a rare resource cost (say 45 exotic gases), but no rare resource upkeep. Then the next tier after that would require special resource upkeep along with cost. Just a random idea I came up with on the spot.

 

[Azhcristokos]

It's always curious to me how different groups of friends react differently to these changes. All of mine love these changes, and none of us are hardcore gamers; we only ever played in short bursts.

...the balancing is, doubtlessly, a bit...wonky, at best though.

 

[nuyu]

TBH I like 2.2 new changes. Maybe because it's new, as for me Galactic market give me flexibility to manage my resources. Currently I produce 250+ foods monthly, I just keep selling that excessive food to compensate other resource that I lack.

 

[magickware99]

TBH I like 2.2 new changes. Maybe because it's new, as for me Galactic market give me flexibility to manage my resources. Currently I produce 250+ foods monthly, I just keep selling that excessive food to compensate other resource that I lack.

You could manage resources that you generate in great amounts in 2.1 by using the trader enclaves. So far there doesn't seem to be a significant difference between using them and the galactic market besides that the galactic market behaves more like a "market" + you get additional options when it comes to the numbers being talked about.

 

[nuyu]

You could manage resources that you generate in great amounts in 2.1 by using the trader enclaves. So far there doesn't seem to be a significant difference between using them and the galactic market besides that the galactic market behaves more like a "market" + you get additional options when it comes to the numbers being talked about.

Trader enclaves, we need to find them. But what I like about them is their price will never go down...

 

[MFever]

I've never posted before because I had nothing to complain about and yes, I have purchased all the expansions, etc. I'm not trying to be harsh, but my view after giving the update a chance is that it's is self-absorbed garbage.

The game-play has slowed down to a crawl, planet micro is now the (horrible) focal point when it shouldn't be, and the changes have stunted an already struggling AI in the process. Paradox fans and those who want to be liked will say it's all OK and rationalize, but it sucks, hard.