Finland in Victoria 3 - Part 1: Brief history, flag, map, infrastructure

[kviiri]

A United Scandinavia would really only have one major barrier. The treatment of Uralic people and language specifically Finns. If they do that along with influential large Swedish and threat of Russia retaking it, it should become very appealing and understandable for them to join Scandinavia if offered equal representation and a lot of autonomy. Maybe Scotland situation with rest of union that likely becomes increasingly centralized among themselves to point they just identify as either “Nordic” or Scandinavian either they be in Iceland, Denmark, or Sweden.
Finns language is respected across union even outside of Greater Finland to get them on board

I disagree that it would be the only barrier; I mean, Scandinavia was more or less united several times in history, including the United Kingdoms of Sweden and Norway during the Victoria, and was always collapsed by nationalist sentiments and/or unequal treatment by those in charge. There's plenty of historical hostility to overcome.

But even disregarding that, aren't we talking specifically about *Finland* founding a united Scandinavia? That's a part I don't really see happening, at least assuming East Swedish culture doesn't triumph there. The Finnish ambitions were historically more concerned with uniting the Finnic peoples under a single national banner – sometimes without valuing the cultures of the assimilated peoples much (eg. repression of Sami culture).

 

[Nibbes]

I disagree that it would be the only barrier; I mean, Scandinavia was more or less united several times in history, including the United Kingdoms of Sweden and Norway during the Victoria, and was always collapsed by nationalist sentiments and/or unequal treatment by those in charge. There's plenty of historical hostility to overcome.

But even disregarding that, aren't we talking specifically about *Finland* founding a united Scandinavia? That's a part I don't really see happening, at least assuming East Swedish culture doesn't triumph there. The Finnish ambitions were historically more concerned with uniting the Finnic peoples under a single national banner – sometimes without valuing the cultures of the assimilated peoples much (eg. repression of Sami culture).

True, I was saying there should be routes for cooperation or possible federation to integrate Finland into Scandinavia both by force or voluntarily as one of the Nordic countries maybe even Sweden gets some unique ways to reclaim it due to Swedish minority and historical ties. I agree it would be odd for Finland to form Scandinavia but once it’s already form they might be willing to join on somewhat mutual terms out of fear Russia might retake them.

You can also go “Finlandized historical” route. Aka you become a Switzerland or buffer between east and west depending how geopolitics around you take shape. Finland small and not highly populated that alone makes what it’s neighbors do more of concern for them on average.

For example, the Swedes should have option to create union with Finland like it has with Norway if they still retain Norway and take Finland from Russian overlordship. So it’s puppet basically but even more independent then it was under Russia so you have “sets” for Sweden to form a Scandinavian union. There even one island that still has Swedish majority so Swedish claims aren’t weak Russia just not someone they really want to mess with anymore but as Sweden or Finland this is why I would buddy up with Germany.

Maybe Finland can even accept German king if they gain independence that helps increase relations with Prussia later Germany

 

[Mingmung]

How's Finland's current map looking, historically-speaking?

 

[Cora Giantkiller]

Hello everyone! This is my first time posting here and it is purely out of concern for PDXs ability and willingness to do Finland some justice in Victoria 3.​

This post is wonderful! I'm thinking hard about a Finland AAR (either for Victoria 2/HFM or Victoria 3 when it comes out), so I bookmarked this thread to serve as reference.

 

[Nibbes]

Question what is situation for other Uralic speaking people? Like ones in Russia more specifically?

Given name of language group do most outside of Finland, Estonia, and Hungary don’t most live near Ural Mountains?

This is not so much historical emphasis point but rather not see Finland try to claim lands in northern Russia or the Arctic outside of Karelia and and Kola. So basically the Scandinavia peninsula or geographic area.
I’m willing to concede they should be able to claim Estonia and Ingria but anything more seems like it would be border gore eye sore.

Also I do think more rational regimes even nationalist ones would consider geography for defensive reasons.

Think about it. If your Finland or even Scandinavia it’s much easier to defend those choke points near the Arctic then it is to defend Estonia and Ingria. Expanding more in Russia along its Arctic coastline would only make that harder and arguably stupid expansion for little gain if not opposite.
Think about winter war vs Nazis invasion of USSR. Hope war mechanics get geography importance to warfare down. That’s only way you can level playing field against Russia numbers along with our tech/training them per soldier.

Question those, what if Finland takes St Petersburg? I know they got minority there but would they rename city? Also could you see it possible destroyed depending on Finnish or Scandinavian regime/leadership? You see many Russians and not Finns leave city? Taking St. Petersburg alone as Finland fs with your demographics a lot. That city alone I believe has more people then all of Finland or even Greater Finland I believe so interesting decisions there for Finnish or Scandinavian player who takes it

 

[BrytonJSwan]

This is a pretty minor observation but in the new steam screenshots you can see in one image that Finland is now labelled on the map as "Grand Duchy of Finland" rather than just "Finland." Interesting!

 

[Engram]

Question what is situation for other Uralic speaking people? Like ones in Russia more specifically?

Given name of language group do most outside of Finland, Estonia, and Hungary don’t most live near Ural Mountains?

This is not so much historical emphasis point but rather not see Finland try to claim lands in northern Russia or the Arctic outside of Karelia and and Kola. So basically the Scandinavia peninsula or geographic area.
I’m willing to concede they should be able to claim Estonia and Ingria but anything more seems like it would be border gore eye sore.

Also I do think more rational regimes even nationalist ones would consider geography for defensive reasons.

Think about it. If your Finland or even Scandinavia it’s much easier to defend those choke points near the Arctic then it is to defend Estonia and Ingria. Expanding more in Russia along its Arctic coastline would only make that harder and arguably stupid expansion for little gain if not opposite.
Think about winter war vs Nazis invasion of USSR. Hope war mechanics get geography importance to warfare down. That’s only way you can level playing field against Russia numbers along with our tech/training them per soldier.

Question those, what if Finland takes St Petersburg? I know they got minority there but would they rename city? Also could you see it possible destroyed depending on Finnish or Scandinavian regime/leadership? You see many Russians and not Finns leave city? Taking St. Petersburg alone as Finland fs with your demographics a lot. That city alone I believe has more people then all of Finland or even Greater Finland I believe so interesting decisions there for Finnish or Scandinavian player who takes it

Realistically and historically speaking, it would be very hard to justify expansion (far) beyond East Karelia. The Finnic languages, Finnish, Karelian, Veps, Izhorian, Votic, Estonian, Kvenish are, to an extent, mutually intelligible. Sámi is part of the (Baltic-)Finnic branch of the Uralic language group, but it's already very different. So in that sense, a "Finnic Empire" akin to Greater Finland is sensible. Peoples other than that, speakers of the other Uralic languages would be very hard to integrate to such a state because both the language and culture are so very different from Baltic-Finnic.

Your assessment on geography is on the right tracks. The triple isthmus border was very desirable to the FDF during WW2 because it would indeed be easier to defend those three choke points. A long arctic coast would be problematic, yes, as defending a region with little to no infrastructure is a real challenge. Although, so is an offense in such a region.

Lastly, regarding St. Petersburg: it has (always?) been called "Pietari" in Finnish so renaming it under Finnish control would make sense. On the other hand, nationalists might prefer the Finnish name of the Swedish castle and settlement which stood there before St. Petersburg: Nevanlinna (Swe. Nyenskans), capital of Swedish Ingria.

This is a pretty minor observation but in the new steam screenshots you can see in one image that Finland is now labelled on the map as "Grand Duchy of Finland" rather than just "Finland." Interesting!

I was delighted to see that! But after the post by the Polish advocate, I'm fearing for Finland's fate in the game.

 

[Fulmen]

It might interest you that Finland will be represented in-game as a Personal Union partner of Russia (source: Russia AAR on imgur) similar to eg. Norway under Sweden.

Also confirmed by Wiz himself in my thread on the Grand Duchy back in May. IIRC there was talk somewhere that Finland would be a dominion-tier satellite, not a PU subject, though maybe that has changed. I didn't go through that wall of text in the Imgur link.

How's Finland's current map looking, historically-speaking?

From what I've seen, they finally fixed them, more or less at least (the Jäniskoski area ceded in 1947 is still a question mark). In past PDX games they've invariably given Finland historically inaccurate borders, usually based on the modern borders that Finland has as a result of WW2, with parts of the country missing that should be there. Actually I touch on this topic with map illustrations in that thread of mine from May that I linked above, if you want to go take a look.

I was delighted to see that! But after the post by the Polish advocate, I'm fearing for Finland's fate in the game.

Finland in the 19th century is a very poorly known and understood topic abroad, which is why you almost never see the Grand Duchy in games, documentaries and videos about the era, even when they show political entities that had far less autonomy, like various European colonies and protectorates.

I am fairly confident though that PDX won't be removing the Grand Duchy of Finland at this point. At worst they'll add Poland as a Russian subject in 1836, even though I think that'd be a mistake as Poland by then was little more than a glorified province with some local institutions that were being stripped away.

 

[luxfelix]

I sure learned something today, thank you.


If I recall correctly, personal unions are a special vassal type that are only available at game start?

If that's the case, then does that mean Finland could not become a personal union under Sweden again; or, at least, not without some special decision?

 

[apexodoggo]

If that's the case, then does that mean Finland could not become a personal union under Sweden again; or, at least, not without some special decision?

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that after the game starts the only PUs that can form occur through events, rather than being something you can form through, says, conquest.

 

[Engram]

How's Finland's current map looking, historically-speaking?

The latest screenshots still include some anachronistic borders. You can compare the map I posted in the original post to the screenshot below.

1. Petsamo's border appears to mimick the 1945 border. Secondly, it was not Finnish in 1836, although Finns were quaranteed free access to the Arctic Ocean in a 1826 deal when the Norwegian border was settled as the population in the region was mostly Finnish-Sámi-Norwegian.
2. Salla is missing a big chunk. What we see on the map is the 1945 border.
3. The Swedish border following the Torne River seems a little too sinuous, at least in my opinion. But that could just be the map projection and viewing angle.

 

[Fulmen]

The latest screenshots still include some anachronistic borders. You can compare the map I posted in the original post to the screenshot below.

1. Petsamo's border appears to mimick the 1945 border. Secondly, it was not Finnish in 1836, although Finns were quaranteed free access to the Arctic Ocean in a 1826 deal when the Norwegian border was settled as the population in the region was mostly Finnish-Sámi-Norwegian.
2. Salla is missing a big chunk. What we see on the map is the 1945 border.
3. The Swedish border following the Torne River seems a little too sinuous, at least in my opinion. But that could just be the map projection and viewing angle.

View attachment 787938

I thought they had fixed this. Granted, the screenshot I saw months ago was quite zoomed out. Disappointing, but not surprising; similar anachronistic Finnish borders (particularly with Salla) are present in almost all PDX GSGs.

Are there more screenshots where the borders of the Grand Duchy are visible?

 

[Engram]

Are there more screenshots where the borders of the Grand Duchy are visible?

The two most recent ones with Finland visible are from the Steam Store page of Victoria 3. No recent DD, AAR or Monthly Update screenshots show Finland.