Federations... Economics breaking?

[lafo_mamone]

Not quite sure how the Federations economics work. You lose no money from joining them, are able to keep 80% of your naval capacity and have a federation navy for wars. So where does the financing to make and keep up the Federation navy come from?

I mean, I have tons of hours logged on Paradox titles and about 130 on Stellaris, but this seems like a big hole. I play an arsehole military hegemony empire and the only times I get beaten is by AI-only Federations. All of their members have inferior/pathetic status in all the available parameters, but somehow they are able to kick me seven ways to Sunday. And I can't see the strength of a federation in terms of fleets. TF?

 

[Kat Tsun]

It's simple: Subjective value of warships dramatically increases upon joining a Federation. Shipyards have to bar their portholes, space elevators, and hangar bays to keep the clamoring masses from swamping them with their newly discovered patriotic fervor. Politicians have to start cutting healthcare and education spending to pay for Federation flagged warships, people line up at the tax office to donate all their worldly goods to the navy, and intergalactic fleets have no shortage of brave volunteers.

The cost doesn't increase because there's no extra money being sent to the Federation. Rather, the existing costs of things are being shuffled around to different government departments and bureaucracies, with the full support of the population.

 

[lafo_mamone]

Oh, yeah. Forgot this part as well: my fleets are kinda big (lots of small boats, since my research limited me to Cruisers at best (so about 70 corvettes, 24 DDs and 12 CLs per fleet). Boom, it's facing 8 BBs plus all the accoutrements (similar fleet strenght).

 

[BrokenSky]

To be fair I feel like federations should have some way to measure the total federation tech and strength compared to you. As is, when an AI joins a federation your best guess at it's strength gets worse and worse the bigger the federation.

Why wouldn't you have researched battleships? Its maybe worth waiting at least until you have that tech before taking over the galaxy.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Oh, yeah. Forgot this part as well: my fleets are kinda big (lots of small boats, since my research limited me to Cruisers at best (so about 70 corvettes, 24 DDs and 12 CLs per fleet). Boom, it's facing 8 BBs plus all the accoutrements (similar fleet strenght).

Whoever is leading the Federation can build Federation-fleet ships out of their own pocket. Those ships then do not cost maintenance.

Of course, Federation fleets are of somewhat limited advantage- IMO the real strength comes from having multiple states all capable of sending their personal fleets towards objectives. My current game I've been just barely helping my Federation disassemble a bunch of big empires, because I can sit inside my borders and venture out to snipe nearby worlds while the Federation sends its ships halfway across the galaxy to wipe out vassal states and invade the big guys.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

the Federation President has the job of building the fleet.

 

[Adamsrealm]

Federation fleet comtrol should shift around, but all members should pay to the federation fleets upkeep, though how this would he shared out is still up for debate... perhaps it could be a pledge system and the more you put in the better your standing? The pledge system could probably be used for other internal affairs that effect opinions within federations, and wouod actually add depth to them, wouldn't mind bribery being a valid mechanic too, as well as passive threats...

Federations should have huge potential, but be by no means easy to achieve dominance over the galaxy....

Wars also shouldn't be full on or nothing, I'd like to see skirmishes in neutral territory or for violating claimed space...

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Federation fleet comtrol should shift around, but all members should pay to the federation fleets upkeep, though how this would he shared out is still up for debate... perhaps it could be a pledge system and the more you put in the better your standing? The pledge system could probably be used for other internal affairs that effect opinions within federations, and wouod actually add depth to them, wouldn't mind bribery being a valid mechanic too, as well as passive threats...

Federations should have huge potential, but be by no means easy to achieve dominance over the galaxy....

Wars also shouldn't be full on or nothing, I'd like to see skirmishes in neutral territory or for violating claimed space...

IMO taking 20% of your fleet cap works decently as an abstraction of the upkeep costs being distributed- if you're not in a Federation, your fleet cap is probably maxed anyhow.

 

[Drakonn]

It always seemed odd to me that the cost of building the Fleet was put onto one nation. Shouldn't resources be shared for this reason (similar to fleet capacity). If I'm having to rebuild my Empire's fleet from a war them I'm not really going to want to spend my minerals on the Federation Fleet. Especially given how the next President will use it for however he wants.

Could be a way to bring back Alliances. Step up from Defensive pact but not sharing resources or fleet capacity like a Federation would. But then we have how is that different from Defense Pact but I digress from topic.

 

[Adamsrealm]

IMO taking 20% of your fleet cap works decently as an abstraction of the upkeep costs being distributed- if you're not in a Federation, your fleet cap is probably maxed anyhow.

You do know the max possible capacity is 9999, which isn't hard to get with a 1000 star galaxy

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

You do know the max possible capacity is 9999, which isn't hard to get with a 1000 star galaxy

I'm... not sure what your point is?

The game encourages you to max your fleet cap through whatever means nessecary no matter what- you always want a higher fleet cap, and you always want to be making use of all of it (because it plays one of the largest roles in how the AI treats you).

The 20% you sacrifice for Federation membership would be in use anyway if you hadn't joined- so I feel like that works as an abstraction of distributed upkeep.

 

[Adamsrealm]

I'm... not sure what your point is?

The game encourages you to max your fleet cap through whatever means nessecary no matter what- you always want a higher fleet cap, and you always want to be making use of all of it (because it plays one of the largest roles in how the AI treats you).

The 20% you sacrifice for Federation membership would be in use anyway if you hadn't joined- so I feel like that works as an abstraction of distributed upkeep.

Federations fleet cap penalty is kinda redundant as if you go to war, all your federation buddies join you anyways

 

[lafo_mamone]

It always seemed odd to me that the cost of building the Fleet was put onto one nation. Shouldn't resources be shared for this reason (similar to fleet capacity). If I'm having to rebuild my Empire's fleet from a war them I'm not really going to want to spend my minerals on the Federation Fleet. Especially given how the next President will use it for however he wants.

Could be a way to bring back Alliances. Step up from Defensive pact but not sharing resources or fleet capacity like a Federation would. But then we have how is that different from Defense Pact but I digress from topic.

Wait, the presidency of a federation rotates, so the building costs should not be only on one nation?

 

[The Founder]

Not quite sure how the Federations economics work. You lose no money from joining them, are able to keep 80% of your naval capacity and have a federation navy for wars. So where does the financing to make and keep up the Federation navy come from?

What does it mater? It is a game, not a accounting programm.
The Federation costs 2 Influence and 20% Fleet cap of every member. While also forcing you into joint declarations of war. There should be some benefit from that. The Federation Fleet not costing Maintenance is one of the few.

I agree, there should be a (non-free) way for a player to keep control for the Federation Fleet permanently in a AI alliance. We are just able to use it so much better then the AI.
I also agree that Federations should be considered a complete entitiy. Including a total summed up score for Technology, Fleet Strenght and Naval Capacity.
But both of those would require rather extensive reworks of the mechanics. I do not see it comming until after 1.5 is done.

Could be a way to bring back Alliances. Step up from Defensive pact but not sharing resources or fleet capacity like a Federation would. But then we have how is that different from Defense Pact but I digress from topic.

The advantage that Federations have over Defense Pacts are twofold:
Capped Cost. Def Pact costs 1 Influence per party. More then 2 and you of worse with Defense pacts.
Shared War declaration. The shared defense aspect only works if you know the other party will NOT suicide it's fleet.

We might be able to apply one of those to new alliances. But would it be worth it, without the Veto Rights to war declarations?

 

[Drakonn]

Wait, the presidency of a federation rotates, so the building costs should not be only on one nation?

Only the current president can make changes/build the fleet and the resources for such come from that president's empire's own resources. Not a Federation pool of resources.

he advantage that Federations have over Defense Pacts are twofold:
Capped Cost. Def Pact costs 1 Influence per party. More then 2 and you of worse with Defense pacts.
Shared War declaration. The shared defense aspect only works if you know the other party will NOT suicide it's fleet.

We might be able to apply one of those to new alliances. But would it be worth it, without the Veto Rights to war declarations?

Could just tweak the influence cost numbers if need be to make it work. Alliances, if they were brought back, would most likely need a voting on war aspects otherwise dragging a player into a conflict would become annoying. Then again we get the web of pacts that draw other people in like WWI but so do defensive alliances I guess so eh. Needs more thought I can't put into at the moment.

 

[Drakonn]

I also agree that Federations should be considered a complete entitiy.

This actually would be a good start. Let Federations be their own entity. They'll show up on the galactic map as such (with each Empire underneath as a "state" per say of the main body; or at least a map mode that shows those). Federations could become something more. Such as all their races having to abide by a set of laws agreed upon by all it's member states. No slaves, democracy only, certain living standards, etc. Federation Fleet could still be some percentage of each Empire's fleet cap but there would also be a pool of resources taken from each member (whatever is good for game balance naturally) that the Federation president would have control over. He/She/It could distribute it to the member states for specific projects. Each state could petition the president for special projects. This could feed back into relations where member states can get annoyed if they aren't being granted resources or said projects. Eventually leaving or having to be placated somehow. Politics, voting, and all could be incorporated too.

Different Federation types for different Empire types. Such as ones that embrace slavery or the other options the "good" guys do not typically partake in. That way no Empire is cut off from being able to join a Federation and then subsequently picked on by a suddenly larger state.

Alliances would then come back as a lesser form of this. Essentially almost what Federations are now minus the fleet cap donation. *shrug* That or more tweaking to them to give them other benefits as well.

Sorry, went off there for moment. Ideas, ideas....

(posted idea in Suggestions forum and linked credit back to this thread)