Features you'd like to see in Vicky 2 Megathread

[TheLand]

What about the CORE for HOI2 system?

Substinence economy, agricultural economy, semi-industrial economy, industrial economy?

have you played Victoria?

The main difference between 'civilized' and 'uncivilized' nations there is about research rates and diplomacy (they suck at both).

The economy is modelled in more detail than any other PDox game.

 

[TheLand]

-Less dreadnoughts and capital ships. More supply, coast guard and little ships.

No! More dreadnoughts! Always more dreadnoughts!!

 

[OHgamer]

I only have one request

channeling the Joan Crawford character in Mommy Dearest

NO MORE COLONIAL WARS!!!!

[/joan crawford]

 

[Chargone]

once refrigeration exists, NZ and Australia basically Exist to export meat and dairy products to Britain. that and wool. this only ended some time in the 1900s (after ww2 and before i was born ) because Britain switched to the European economic community as it's main trade focus, causing, incidentally, major economic crashes. prior to this event NZ's currency was actually worth more than the US dollar. and i Think that was after it stopped being tied to the British pound. admittedly, None/almost none of this stuff is taught unless you take the appropriate University course, so i may have this a bit wrong, date wise.

anyway. point is that food trade even from one side of the world to the other was ongoing in at least the later part of the era covered by the game. which was significant to the conversation. i now forget why, as I've been too busy thinking about this

oh, right: refrigeration is a big one for trading food.

edit: good grief. i could have sworn this was part of a two page thread when i posted it... now i find it on page NINE? eep. :S

 

[Hardstuff]

I only have one request

channeling the Joan Crawford character in Mommy Dearest

NO MORE COLONIAL WARS!!!!

[/joan crawford]

They were terrible.

Especially if it involved the AI. :wacko:

 

[Davisx3m]

A good ending screen. Victoria is the only paradox game that got a good ending screen. Let Vicky 2 have one too!

 

[OHgamer]

One thing I'd like to see ported in from EU3 is the types of government that ranged from tribal confederacies, tribal democracies and tribal monarchy up through absolutist monarchy and then expanded to include constitutional monarchy, democratic republic and then add in proletarian dicatorship and presidential dictatorship. This would allow a better ability, IMHO, to model the existence of non-Western states especially in the colonial world in the first part of the game, and hopefully eliminate the horribly bogus notion in Vicky 1 that much of the colonial world was some sort of empty terra nullius that Western nations could simply walk into and create colonial regimes with nary a peep from the local peoples as to whether or not this was something they wanted or desired.

 

[unmerged(156302)]

Well, I have a whole list of ideas concerning possible improvements and enhancements for Victoria 2 compared to first part.
I split them into several parts.

MAPS
----

1. Remove the physical map, or at least make it useful for something. In normal Vicky it was pointless - there was no single thing it was good for (because it was fancy and unclear it couldn't be even used to see what terrain was there in provinces). Either provide a solid, informative terrain map (like in HoI2), or do away with it entirely.

2. It would be great to see maps with economic/demographic informations. Like population densities, production total, production per capita, profile of production, etc. Like "every economic/demographic map you could find in a proper geographic atlas". I was always lacking those maps, while not using the "phsical map" at all. Also, if done this way, there has to be "unemployment" map, so you could actually see where there are not enough factories or underdeveloped RGOs.

3. Provinces should be made a lot more uniform in sizes. It was quite silly how a siberian province was as large as a quarter of Europe that contained 100 provinces. Especially so since the distance was measured in provinces. And building transsiberian railway was very cheap. Cheaper than building railway from Berlin to Moscow. After all, it was "closer".

4. States should be made a bit more uniform in sizes. Not so much as provinces, but a little bit. It was strange seeing "states" such as Boston or other miniscule 1-province states cramped on the east coast, while the same "state" in northern Canada was half the size of whole USA.

5. It should be visible or checkable if given state is colony or not ! It was silly that the only way I know in Victoria to learn whether given state is colony or not was to try attacking it in colonial war. In colonial war you couldn't plan anything, because you could only wonder "would I be able to attack here or not ?". And then of course it would turn out that Freetown in Africa is not a colony but a proper english city, basically on the same rights as London.


ECONOMY
-------

1. Goods reserves should be state-owned reserves. But in normal Vicky, the stuff produced in your own country magically and free of any charge go to this reserves. Since the pepople that actually produced these things in factories get money for that, you should be paying for these goods ! On the other hand, selling stuff from the reserves should directly earn you money (after all, it was the government that owned those goods). Aside from that, when you set goods to "buy" or "sell", it should be also possible to set whether to buy/sell within the country, or use global market. This way it would be possible to just (for example) set "small arms" to "buy" and "internal market", so that your national reserves are buying arms from home producers only. Or in the times of crisis, set "grain" to "sell" and "internal market" so that your people have access to grain even if there was some drought or other problem with grain production (setting it to internal market would assure that you won't help for example those pesky neighbors - let them starve !)

2. Imports in Victoria are not imports. It shows STATE imports only. It should be showing country imports, meaning all that your pops buy from abroad (and pay tariffs from). Exports in Victoria were not exports, but more like "market volume" (from what I seen) - the stuff that your own pops bought were also included in exports. That's wrong. It should be really telling what is sold to OUTSIDE of the country. Of course the indicator for "internal market volume" showing how much stuff is being traded between RGOs, factories and pops would be also very very useful.
Additionally, it would be REALLY good to be able to look up the detailed reports on exports/imports/internal market, i.e. what goods are being imported/exported/traded internally and in what quantities. It could enormously help to decide what factories to build or what RGOs to prioritise. You wouldn't have to wonder anymore "is my grain production enough to feed all my people, or am I importing grain ? or maybe i'm actually exporting massive amounts ?" or "what goods are actually in short supply and what factories are needed ?"
I always did that, for example not having a clue how much clothing for example was used by the country as a whole (by pops).


3. Factory supply is another slightly illogical thing in Victoria. If you didn't have home supply of certain goods, then STATE had to buy materials for the factory, while getting NO income from that. Factories should be able to buy supplies on world market, just like pops can. After all, it's those pops that "run" the factory and get any income out of it. As a state you only get income out of the pops through taxes, not from factories themselves.

4. There could be also factory ownership: private or state. If it was private, then factory is entirely run by pops (or more precisely, by certain capitalist pop), it should be able to get supplies from wherever it wants and sell it as it wishes. If the factory was state property then the income share that normally would go to capitalists controlling the factory would go to your budget, as divident (might turn out negative if factory is running in the red). Still it would be factory's directors responsible for buying supplies and selling products, not you (the state) directly, so aside from getting a divident you would not get any other freebies nor obligations (still factory buys supplies itself, and you have to buy products if you want them in reserves, but the divident will offset the cost considerably.

5. If the distinction betwen private (capitalist-owned) and state (government owned) factories is made, some of them may be outright disallowed in certain economic organizations. So for example State Property economy would disallow all private factories, while Laissez-faire would disallow state owned factories. If the economy changed, then the old, not fitting factories would have to be "converted" (bought by the state or sold to capitalists), although maybe not instantly. For sure no new private factories could be built under State Property economy, nor any state factories could be constructed under Laissez-faire economy. Maybe in case of Laissez-faire, few special types of factories would be allowed to be state property, namely military production factories, like small arms, artillery and tanks - the factories that produce goods not used in civilian economy at all, only useful for military.


DEMOGRAPHICS
------------

1. Immigration/emigration should be made more realistic. It's rather strange that in regular Victoria tons of people prefer to migrate to Alaska and sit there unemployed, rather than moving where they actually could get a job !
They should pay more attention to job than "gold somewhere in the state" that they will never touch. Moreover, there should be larger degree of randomness as to where people migrate to. I got the feeling that it's very deterministic in Victoria - huge piles of immigrants in one, eventually two states, while not a SINGLE person in others. People have in reality so many reasons and considerations that they NEVER do things so deterministically. To model that, an appropriate noise in decision-making should be applied.

2. Make pops effectiveness more tied to their size, so that 500 people in 5 different pops are not more efficient than 1 pop or 10000 people. While pops are a very good idea, the effectiveness should be linear (or close to) with its size to avoid silliness. Moreover, RGOs and factories should be limited in total PEOPLE working, not POP number. So let's say factory level 1 could have 10000 people working in, regardless how many different POPs would that be. If everything tied to POP would be scaled with its size, then the behavior of whole game will be more believable and realistic. If some leveling factor for overpopulated countries/provinces/states is needed, so that they don't dominate the game completely, the effectivness of employment in factories/RGOs could be sublinear. Meaning that factory or farm with 1000 workers does not produce 10 times more stuff than the one with 100 workers, but for example 5 times more goods. The exact sublinear dependence is up to decide. This will also have a side-effect of making overpopulated factories/RGOs and therefore overpopulated provinces less attractive, since income per capita will be lower.

[EDIT:]
3. Allow POPs to evolve by themselves. After all, the state didn't dictate who was who (and for sure not for democracies). The by-hand POP promotion to different types is not very realistic.
For example: The evolution from lower to middle classes would be dependant on education. After all, the promotion in Vicky was "Educate to Clerks" for example. So the higher the education slider, the more people actually manage to advance from being laborers to craftsmen, or from craftsmen to clerks. Depending on military policy, POPs should convert themselves into Soldiers or from Soldiers to end out better. Soldier POPs would be paid from "Defense" Budget, so the higher it is, the more people would decide to become soldiers because it would pay better than still mining coal (for example). In similar vein, if you reduced the slider enough, people would elect to cut timber rather than live in old, half-ruined barracks for bare subsistence wages.
The advancement to aristocracy would be nonexistent, because you really need to be born aristocrat to be one. So only growth and migration (though aristocrat might be veeery unlikely to migrate). And clerks rich enough might advance to capitalists, to start a business (see the point about private factories in Economy).

4. Disallow "by hand" POP promotion/demotions. Maybe except some autocratic regimes. After all, usually people decided themselves what to do (and usually went with the best they could). You could control the population composition to some degree through demand for their work. If there are lots of understaffed factories, naturally many people will decide to become craftsment. If the soldier wages are extraorbitant, even some good-earning clerks might decide it's a better life and become soldiers. Similarly aristocracts might decide that army career as officers are better for them in such a country.
Bottom line: no micromanaging what people do. Let them decide themselves, just allow player (the government) to set up some scheme of push and pulls and let the machine roll !

5. Similar to POP promotions/demotions, it should be the people that decide where to work, not player. Of course if you have state owned factories, you might elect to close them to force people to other jobs (just don't expect such people to love government = +MIL). The POPs would just usually take the best work they can find (with some noise added to take into account personal preferences, situations and other factors not covered by socio-economic model). Additionally, some POP issues might influence their decisions. Pacifist POPs would not become Soldiers even if they were starving as laborers, while Jingoists would not go back to coal mining unless really their necks were on the line (though it's more likely they would just increase in MIL and revolt).
[/EDIT]

MILITARY
--------

1. The system of manpower in Victoria was not good one. You could exploit it recruiting many unit of certain culture, that the population of that culture could not really support. And the home province didn't count THAT much.
Maybe provide each state with separate manpower pool, and split units not by culture but by state ? All losses to the army would be inflicted appropriately among all soldier POPs in its home state. And it would be the status of the state (state/colony/whatever) that decide the possible troop qualities.

2. I expect already that the combat modifier system would be like HoI (meaning multiplicative) instead of additive. Additive produces baaad results.
I also noticed the troublesome behavior in Victoria, where single irregular division (of my satellite) was completely ruining the dig-in bonus, because it got averaged over my perfect 100 dig-in and 0 dig-in of irregulars running around for no reason. So extra division actually made the position weaker, which is not realistic.


POLITICS
--------

1. Changing the way you can grant statehood to states, so that Freetown doesn't become proper english city just like that. There seems to be little difference between REALLY home provinces, the core of the country, and some end-of-the-world state that just happened to have some immigrants of your culture. Maybe make further distinction between Homeland, States, Colonies and so on ? There should be some difference between London and Freetown in its status. Maybe give more weight to the cores ?
Like Statehood + Core = Homeland, Statehood + non Core = State, no Statehood + Core = Territory, no Statehood + non Core = Colony ?
Or some similar system that makes difference between realistically different levels of "belonging" to an empire.

2. More political options ! But I would take that for granted now. Victoria had really little you could do with other country other than declare war or trade through Open Negotiations. No demanding territories, no threats, no taking claims as war spoils, no demanding specific actions on the part of others. When you are running world-spanning empire, you need options to pressure opponents on different fronts. In Vicky it seems nothing goes on without a war.

3. Ability to see some information about other countries, other than just ranks in Prestige/Industry/Military. Who are their ruling party ? What are their ideologies ? You could technically check it all in Statistics, but why not give access to that in some more reasonable place.
Similarly, you could not even see the approximate population of provinces owned by others, or those unclaimed yet (you can see the culture pie chart, but not the total population, or at least estimate of that).

4. Ability to do some politics on the state-scale. For example inciting colonies to secede from their masters or raise militancy (thanks to POP system, a liberalist propaganda might work on liberals under nonliberal government).


TECHNOLOGY
----------

1. Reverse the situation with "Inventions" and Technologies. What I mean, the basic, core concepts like Romanticism or so just spread. The government doesn't have to actively pursue Revolution & Contrrevolution for the people to get that idea from other countries or by circumstances. It's the actual technologies that ARE developed by countries. So getting the "Idea" of a Barrel/Tank might trigger by chance after a heavy Verdun-style static battle, while actually developing technology to make them is up to governments. Not the other way around !
This would give much more realistic behaviors. The general ideas and notions spread by themselves. Of course Literacy could affect the rate at which ideas arrive in your country. Different Ideas could have different "infection" rates, sometimes conditional. For example: Military organization ideas might be spreading slowly. But should you have a war with another country, their military ideas might spread a lot easier to you, as the soldiers and commanders on the battlefield learn concepts of the opposite army, and the effective things they employ. On the other hand, Revolution & Contrrevolution might be like a plague, impossible to stop by any means, and quickly spreading throughout the world. Presence of socialist ideology among your pops might put that rate even higher.
On the other hand, the technologies themselves - knowledge How to Make a Tank, or How to Set Up Military would have to be actually developed by the governments.
The most powerful feature of this setup is that Ideas can appear in response to what happens. If there are opressed, poor people, then Revolution will come to their minds. If there are commanders seeing futility of charging through barbed wires, an armored fighting vehicle might pop into a mind of a brilliant one and so on.

 

[birdboy2000]

Less micromanagement and the ability to reinforce groups of divisions, instead of having to reinforce each one individually.

Also, make civilizing easier and put in more revolter states.

EDIT: And echoing the requests to add in something like the senate from VV. Although hopefully socialists don't have as hard a time as populists. Internal politics can be fun, and this can be just the game to do it in - I'd like to see ministers/advisors as well - president Eugene Debs would be more satisfying than just getting the socialists elected, for instance.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

The ability to let women vote. Essential, although shouldnt be available until the latter part of the game.

 

[OHgamer]

The ability to let women vote. Essential, although shouldnt be available until the latter part of the game.

that should be something that could be done as a decision, or a government type reform.

We almost had it in Vicky 1 via the voting levels, the problem there was having a limited number of them so that universal suffrage was elided to include everyone. Now hopefully this will be fixed and a more nuanced system of determining the vote can be made that takes into account gender as well as socioeconomic and ethnocultural criteria.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

that should be something that could be done as a decision, or a government type reform.

We almost had it in Vicky 1 via the voting levels, the problem there was having a limited number of them so that universal suffrage was elided to include everyone. Now hopefully this will be fixed and a more nuanced system of determining the vote can be made that takes into account gender as well as socioeconomic and ethnocultural criteria.

I reckon it will be in there - note in the announcement it says more reforms and more levels of reforms.

I assume conciousness, militancy and pluralism are in the game, but they might not be. It will be intersting to see if they have been replaced.

 

[Chargone]

The ability to let women vote. Essential, although shouldn't be available until the latter part of the game.

i can't remember the year, or really be bothered to look right now, but New Zealand has the ...pleasing... distinction of being the first nation to actually do this. [well, in the modern sense, anyway]

 

[th3freakie]

A good ending screen. Victoria is the only paradox game that got a good ending screen. Let Vicky 2 have one too!

...and communist Japan has an Emperor. See why we need more Monarchs?

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

i can't remember the year, or really be bothered to look right now, but New Zealand has the ...pleasing... distinction of being the first nation to actually do this. [well, in the modern sense, anyway]

True, followed by the USSR IIRC

 

[Duke of Bavaria]

I d like to have different grades of influence froma bigger power onto a little state...like England and France basically running the show in newly created Greece, like influence of Prussia on the minors in the Norddeutscher Bund /Empire. I mean other countries can demand influence on your decisions so you can only decide in a certain range of options, but still have reserved rights in others.

 

[Carewolf2]

Dynamic cultures and cultural evolution. The vicky really needed a system for "making" new cultures. When you have ahistoric colonies and those colonies grow big and they try to split off, and later have a civil war between fractions of those colonies... You need cultures to represent those new .. ehm .. cultures.

A way to do it could be for each state, province or pop to keep a track of how separate the cultures are from the main culture. So if an english pop in america assimilates a lot of other pops, it will drift from english main culture. And if a far-away region starts producing a lot of culture (think civ4 concept) the culture of that region will become more local. On the other hand a heavy centralized government and a big rich capital will make the sub-cultures of that nation drift towards the main cultures.

You could maybe just have place-holding cultures for most cultures plus continent (french american, italian african, etc.), but I think for it would be better to make the new cultures dynamic even if they are just old culture plus new location.

Of course along with the new cultures, is the dynamic nations. Any region or state atleast colonizable one should be able create new countries, with the basics of those countries determined dynamical.

 

[unmerged(96639)]

I think it might be good to decouple political reforms from the views of political parties. Take minority voting, for example. If you have a party with residence as minority policy, the minorities don't vote. A party with full citizenship wins the election, and minorities now can vote. Four years later, the old residence party wins again, and minorities can no longer vote. I don't think this schizophrenic "Brethren!" - "Git outta mah country!" swing should happen in the legislative sense that easily.

Perhaps you could have certain parties be more likely to pick certain kinds of reforms, and you'd need a certain amount of political capital or something to roll back those of a previous government.

 

[RELee]

I liked the way the original handled land combat, and how it managed to show the transition from shock to fire oriented combat. I liked how Jomini and Clauswitzian army models were represented. I even like the brigade models.

I say this to point out a strength I hope is carried on into the new game. The details may change. I'm kind of counting on it. But I wish for that strength to continue into Vicky 2.

I'm hoping that a better modeling of supply can be introduced for 19th and early 20th century warfare. One that evolves along with the combat models through this century of change.

I'm really hoping that the navies will be modeled much better than in the original. I'm looking for a system that will really represent the high costs of building capital ships, so that we do not see the dreadnought spamming that occurred in Vicky 1. It might even be cool to see treaties that impose naval limits on nations in the never ending quest of "arms control" which started with dreadnoughts instead of atomic bombs. I could see that being a bit more involved than need be however, so just making capital ships more expensive might be all it really takes.

The old system of prestige worked so well in Vicky 1. I hope that a similar system might be possible with 2. I do not want this game to become an easy World Conquest Scenario.

I'll be really interested in how the developers handle the peace settlement process with the new game.

Fiddler on the Roof music would be a nice addition to all the classical and martial stuff everybody is looking for.

TRADITION!

Don't you agree?

 

[unmerged(91450)]

The largest thing I would like to see is major changes to the POP setup. I love the POP setup, I wouldn't trade it for HoI's management for the world, but it could've been a lot better. Here are my suggestions for that:

• POPs should not have a 'default ideology'. This made democracies in Vicky very dull to play. POPs should have an ideology plane (I recommend political compass as a model) that is modified by whatever influences you feel are appropriate. Ideology names can be assigned based on what 1/8th of the plane you fall in, and dominant issues could be assigned specific points on this plane, and the POP's dominant issues are simply whichever issues are closest to their ideology.
• Example: Highly taxed POPs should become more interested in collectivism (socialism -> communism) while low-taxed POPs should become more interested in libertarianism (libertarian -> anarcho-fiscal). POPs which have high security and stability should become more interested in civil rights and liberties (liberal -> anarcho-liberal), while POPs in areas that are not peaceful due to high crime, revolts, or whatever else should become more interested in government control (conservative ->fascist). Low consciousness POPs should drift toward the ideology of whomever is Head of State at the time.
• So to take some examples from that page and put them strictly in terms from Vicky 1: Gandhi (Liberal. Interventionism/Pluralism). Pope Benedict XVI (Socialist. Interventionism/Moralism). Robert Mugabe (State Socialist. State capitalism/Residency). If you can add more language to all this that'd be great, of course, and you may want to even modify what is the 'center' and what is extremist as the game goes on. Slavery was not extremism in 1812, but it most certainly was in 1912.
• RGOs and Factories should have people quotas, not POP quotas. A level 1 RGO should handle 50,000 workers, not 5 POPs. This sort of shift is nice in that it makes the intricacies of POP splitting and joining largely obsolete. The only POP divisions that are interesting are the ethnic, economic and political divisions in the state or province, which can then be organized in a nice list depending on whatever sorting information the player gives you.

Beyond that:
Production

• Please include incentives to allow a Lasseiz Faire or Interventionist government to slant their Capitalists toward a specific kind of factory production, if specific factory types are going to stay in. These incentives could be straight cash bonuses, tariff immunity, tax breaks, or whatever you feel appropriate. This would put a serious damper on the '5th glass factory' pattern from Vicky. Please allow this to extend to incentives to expand existing factories and railroad building.
• There should be some concept of the Capitalists owning the factories they build, and there should be a maximum number of Capitalists per factory same as anything else. Ditto with Aristocrats and RGOs. This also keeps them from just randomly crapping out money the way they do in Vicky.
• Others have spoken about various levels of industrial mobilization. To me this goes against the factory types thing that Vicky has going on. But if specific factory types are going to go, I'd definitely like to see mobilization.

Domestic Politics

• I agree with the others that there should be a robust ministerial system installed. Ideally, I should be able to inspect the dignitaries of a given party at any given time.
• The Politics tab should give me more information on the makeup of my country. Being able to click on a political party and see a list of their % dominance in various states would be excellent.

Relations

• Please give us ways to either prevent or automatically address the decay in relations from not talking to another power or to deal with massive shifts in relations due to regime change. It was incredibly frustrating to spend years working up good relations with a major power, only to have the ruling party change and all your work goes away in an instant.
• Please give us more options to reduce or mitigate Badboy. Badboy is very crippling (as it should be!) but as it stands in Vicky the only way to lose Badboy in a hurry is to reverse what GAVE you the badboy in the first place (releasing satellites). It begs the question of why you bothered in the first place. Perhaps this links in with my next suggestion.
• Please give us more options when dealing with uncivs. It should be possible to provide "civilization aid" to uncivs you're trying to elevate. In Vicky this is outrageously hit or miss. I once gave a full quarter of Africa with forts and iron railroads or better plus native Capitalists in every province to Liberia, and they still didn't civilize properly by the end of the game. Liberation is also good. Either could be ways to reduce Badboy.

Population

• Please give us some way to spur assimilation. It is ridiculous that players can provide 40 years or more of peace, security, and prosperity and never see even a single POP assimilate, especially in the colonies. Perhaps monarchies and dictatorships could order POPs to colonies to provide the natives someplace to assimilate to, perhaps it could be a recurring event where a small percentage of natives convert to your native culture, whatever.
• Please provide more ways to spend leadership than making random generals. Perhaps for double leadership cost we could guarantee generals would have only one negative modifier (like Womanizer or Coward) and for triple cost we could guarantee they have no negative modifiers. The problem is that you only need a few decently sized POPs of Officers to spit out more Leadership than you will ever use.

Technology

• Please remove the 12 month minimum research time on technologies. This is a silly, arbitrary rule that makes no sense at all, especially when you consider that RP production is basically a by-product of having a healthy economy and not something you directly invest in.

I'd also like to point out some of the strengths I saw in Vicky 1 that made me love the game so much.

• Land combat resolution. Like RELee said, fantastically done here. The difference between fire and shock and the use of each was very well handled. Efficiency ratings were easy to understand and it was possible to control it without forcing micromanagement on the battlefield directly, ala the Total War series. Bravo.
• Prestige. The worth of high prestige and the dangers of low prestige were undeniable and losing prestige became an effective deterrant to declaring frivolous wars.
• Budget handling. The caps from party ideals and the smooth slider effects from things like defense spending, education, and crime fighting took seconds to understand and gave the player great amounts of control.
• Partisan and revolt modelling. These got WAY out of hand in very populous countries like China, but by and large this worked very, very well without adding an entirely new concept to compensate for and learn like in HoI.
• World Market. There aren't enough good things I can say about the World Market in Vicky 1. The only reason anyone ever complained was because the AI bankrupted them buying on it. I loved this, and I hope to see it back.