Features of AI on hard difficulty

[jarpiekar]

Hi,

As Johan wrote in one thread "Since we already moved most important AI features to hard difficulty only" recently I wonder what are that features. After reading that statement I assume that AI has special sklls on hard difficulty, not only some positive modifiers. Could you devs elaborate it a little ?

 

[Johan]

At hard level

- AI will consider sending condotierri to non-neighbours.
- AI is more likely to pounce on when player is weak.
- AI is less likely to ally the player.
etc..

 

[Malorn]

At hard level

- AI will consider sending condotierri to non-neighbours.
- AI is more likely to pounce on when player is weak.
- AI is less likely to ally the player.
etc..

Thanks so much for the information. Is this only targeting the player, or does it actually gain better ability to make decisions in other areas? In short, does hard difficulty make the AI smarter, or just more likely to target players over other AI?

 

[Promanco]

Thanks so much for the information. Is this only targeting the player, or does it actually gain better ability to make decisions in other areas? In short, does hard difficulty make the AI smarter, or just more likely to target players over other AI?

The player is by far the most dangerous nation in the game, so it is actually smart to target him/her from the get go

 

[Malorn]

I'm not arguing about that, I'm attempting to get information on if there there any improved AI logic apart from targeting bias.

 

[Roparex]

If you want to actually die, try playing on hard before the cossacks (1.13?). Back then, hard difficulty literraly doubled the armies of every nation, and made them develop like crazy.
When you have 3k development with ottos and half of italy has more army than you.(150k)
Now it's a bit better, but ai logic isn't better. It's just changed a bit. You know, like changing a few variables like 'aggresion'. It might affect ai vs ai combat, but even then, You shouldn't use it because it also gives them cheats (less inflation unrest etc).

 

[Suzaku]

If you want to actually die, try playing on hard before the cossacks (1.13?). Back then, hard difficulty literraly doubled the armies of every nation, and made them develop like crazy.
When you have 3k development with ottos and half of italy has more army than you.(150k)
Now it's a bit better, but ai logic isn't better. It's just changed a bit. You know, like changing a few variables like 'aggresion'. It might affect ai vs ai combat, but even then, You shouldn't use it because it also gives them cheats (less inflation unrest etc).

Well it made some starts easier like Byzantium.

 

[Metz]

So what level difficulty is recommended for a more realistic game? Also will the AI apply more aggressive features all around or only specifically towards the human player?

 

[Chaingun]

Condottieri on Hard isn't aimed specifically against human, it also makes chances you can hire them greater as AI is more willing to offer them in general. Greater overall Condottieri use makes the game more dynamic and thus harder.

The game can be different in other ways on hard; AI does for instance cheat on revolt risk on Hard which leads to Timurids often holding together unlike on Normal. (This specific bonus we might find reason to nerf.)

I would eventually like to move most human specific checks to Very Hard. My vision for difficulty levels is:

Very Easy: AI extremely nice to human. We have a category of players for whom the game on Easy is too hard..
Easy: Same as now, perhaps disabling difficult features (and for Very Easy too).
Normal: Same as now.
Hard: Some light bonuses to AI in areas where it has problems (same as now, possibly reduced), advanced AI features, but "fair".
Very Hard: Very heavy bonuses to AI (similar to the bonuses of old) and checks to make it cooperate against human to a limited degree. For the masochists.

This is just want I want to do, and it's only a matter of time to be available.

 

[londoner247]

Condottieri on Hard isn't aimed specifically against human, it also makes chances you can hire them greater as AI is more willing to offer them in general. Greater overall Condottieri use makes the game more dynamic and thus harder.

The game can be different in other ways on hard; AI does for instance cheat on revolt risk on Hard which leads to Timurids often holding together unlike on Normal. (This specific bonus we might find reason to nerf.)

I would eventually like to move most human specific checks to Very Hard. My vision for difficulty levels is:

Very Easy: AI extremely nice to human. We have a category of players for whom the game on Easy is too hard..
Easy: Same as now, perhaps disabling difficult features (and for Very Easy too).
Normal: Same as now.
Hard: Some light bonuses to AI in areas where it has problems (same as now, possibly reduced), advanced AI features, but "fair".
Very Hard: Very heavy bonuses to AI (similar to the bonuses of old) and checks to make it cooperate against human to a limited degree. For the masochists.

This is just want I want to do, and it's only a matter of time to be available.

It's 03:30 in the morning in Sweden. If you're up at this time then you shouldn't be thinking about AI!

Although, since you are, I have the impression that the AI doesn't currently pursue a long term strategy but that it just seeks to expand where it feels it can do so successfully without excessive border gore. In other words, England forms GB because it has managed to expand and conquer Scotland and not because it actively pursued a strategy of conquering Scotland with a view to forming GB. Would this be right and do you envisage ever having AI settings where they do pursue wider objectives, perhaps actively seeking to complete some of the achievements for example?

I think it would be quite interesting to be playing against an AI Castile / Spain that, for example, is actively seeking to lock everyone else out of the colonial race and keeps seeking allies and wars that can help it to secure that objective.

 

[Malorn]

Condottieri on Hard isn't aimed specifically against human, it also makes chances you can hire them greater as AI is more willing to offer them in general. Greater overall Condottieri use makes the game more dynamic and thus harder.

The game can be different in other ways on hard; AI does for instance cheat on revolt risk on Hard which leads to Timurids often holding together unlike on Normal. (This specific bonus we might find reason to nerf.)

I would eventually like to move most human specific checks to Very Hard. My vision for difficulty levels is:

Very Easy: AI extremely nice to human. We have a category of players for whom the game on Easy is too hard..
Easy: Same as now, perhaps disabling difficult features (and for Very Easy too).
Normal: Same as now.
Hard: Some light bonuses to AI in areas where it has problems (same as now, possibly reduced), advanced AI features, but "fair".
Very Hard: Very heavy bonuses to AI (similar to the bonuses of old) and checks to make it cooperate against human to a limited degree. For the masochists.

This is just want I want to do, and it's only a matter of time to be available.

So turning the AI to hard actually enables more complex thinking, as well as bonuses, if the Condottieri example holds true. Are there any other things that AI does better on hard, apart from it's bonuses? I'm asking because I handle a lot of the AI bonuses and work for MEIOU and Taxes, and if there are actual AI improvements apart from bonuses based on difficulty, that would be very useful to know. To be clear, I mean AI logic and decision making, not any sort of gameplay advantage. The 'advanced AI features' you mentioned, basically.

I like your ideas of difficulties, I'd love to see it implemented.

 

[Chaingun]

Although, since you are, I have the impression that the AI doesn't currently pursue a long term strategy but that it just seeks to expand where it feels it can do so successfully without excessive border gore. In other words, England forms GB because it has managed to expand and conquer Scotland and not because it actively pursued a strategy of conquering Scotland with a view to forming GB. Would this be right and do you envisage ever having AI settings where they do pursue wider objectives, perhaps actively seeking to complete some of the achievements for example?

I think it would be quite interesting to be playing against an AI Castile / Spain that, for example, is actively seeking to lock everyone else out of the colonial race and keeps seeking allies and wars that can help it to secure that objective.

The AI player doesn't currently do any planning, i.e. considering (ahead into the future) the effects of a sequence of actions it might take. A number of independent subsystems perform a series of (what you could call) emotionally driven actions, coordinated (for the most part) only implicitly through observed changes in the gamestate. Sometimes it manages to form a coherent strategy nonetheless.

Overall, there is limited value of looking more than 1 step into the future in this game any way due to the vast number of possible outcomes. If you can quantify how much you will immediately be better off by doing something, that's enough to make decisions that are reasonable in most cases. However, it does lead to things like FRA easily conquering Iberia because CAS/ARA/POR don't realize the future threat of destroying each other in intra-peninsular wars.

I don't think we'll ever attempt to incorporate a general planning system in EU4 due to performance reasons (disregarding the small detail of its implementation).

It's 03:30 in the morning in Sweden. If you're up at this time then you shouldn't be thinking about AI!

Algorithms don't design themselves you know (actually, they can, but...) Currently up thinking about the army AI again at this hour because it's my big headache.

 

[Chaingun]

So turning the AI to hard actually enables more complex thinking, as well as bonuses, if the Condottieri example holds true. Are there any other things that AI does better on hard, apart from it's bonuses? I'm asking because I handle a lot of the AI bonuses and work for MEIOU and Taxes, and if there are actual AI improvements apart from bonuses based on difficulty, that would be very useful to know. To be clear, I mean AI logic and decision making, not any sort of gameplay advantage. The 'advanced AI features' you mentioned, basically.

I like your ideas of difficulties, I'd love to see it implemented.

I'm developing some power balancing stuff for the diplomatic AI on my own accord that's not close to finalized yet, hence I'm reluctant to delve into detail at this point. It's a part of the anti-blob crusade. I will start exposing defines to modders in the next major patch if everything stays.

 

[Malorn]

I'm developing some power balancing stuff for the diplomatic AI on my own accord that's not close to finalized yet, hence I'm reluctant to delve into detail at this point. It's a part of the anti-blob crusade.

I understand completely, never good to talk about something too much before it's ready. I was just very curious because I had previously thought that the difficulty only gave the AI 'bonuses' rather than changing how it made decisions or 'thought'.

 

[Axe99]

Condottieri on Hard isn't aimed specifically against human, it also makes chances you can hire them greater as AI is more willing to offer them in general. Greater overall Condottieri use makes the game more dynamic and thus harder.

The game can be different in other ways on hard; AI does for instance cheat on revolt risk on Hard which leads to Timurids often holding together unlike on Normal. (This specific bonus we might find reason to nerf.)

I would eventually like to move most human specific checks to Very Hard. My vision for difficulty levels is:

Very Easy: AI extremely nice to human. We have a category of players for whom the game on Easy is too hard..
Easy: Same as now, perhaps disabling difficult features (and for Very Easy too).
Normal: Same as now.
Hard: Some light bonuses to AI in areas where it has problems (same as now, possibly reduced), advanced AI features, but "fair".
Very Hard: Very heavy bonuses to AI (similar to the bonuses of old) and checks to make it cooperate against human to a limited degree. For the masochists.

This is just want I want to do, and it's only a matter of time to be available.

I reckon (noting that my opinion is uneducated, but an uneducated positive is at least more friendly than an uneducated negative?! ) that you're thinking along the right lines for AI. I wouldn't mind an option where there were advanced AI features but no bonuses, if it wouldn't cause the AI to fall in a great big hole.

On the longer-term planning thing, would there be any benefit in having some kind of algorithm that sets a longer-term goal, and then assesses the pre-existing short-term 'emotional' behaviours against it, taking into account the external situation? Say (and I'm thinking very simply here) the Castile AI has a long-term goal of controlling all of Region X, so develops claims on bordering territories in region X, but knows not to go to war until powerful, dangerous neighbour is embroiled in another war (as well as the existing checks about alliances sizes and what-have-you)? I know the way it's written it sounds waaayyyyy more simple than it is, but just the idea of having a couple of longer-term 'checks' when the AI evaluates behaviour - so not a lot of extra equations, just a few that have a longer term/more balance-of-powery perspective on them. Given it's longer-term behaviour, it could probably be evaluated once a month or so, rather than every day.

Not suggesting you didn't think of all of this the first 30 seconds on the job, but mentioning in case useful. Good luck with your work, looking forward to seeing it in action .

 

[Ahrirang_kr]

Condottieri on Hard isn't aimed specifically against human, it also makes chances you can hire them greater as AI is more willing to offer them in general. Greater overall Condottieri use makes the game more dynamic and thus harder.

The game can be different in other ways on hard; AI does for instance cheat on revolt risk on Hard which leads to Timurids often holding together unlike on Normal. (This specific bonus we might find reason to nerf.)

I would eventually like to move most human specific checks to Very Hard. My vision for difficulty levels is:

Very Easy: AI extremely nice to human. We have a category of players for whom the game on Easy is too hard..
Easy: Same as now, perhaps disabling difficult features (and for Very Easy too).
Normal: Same as now.
Hard: Some light bonuses to AI in areas where it has problems (same as now, possibly reduced), advanced AI features, but "fair".
Very Hard: Very heavy bonuses to AI (similar to the bonuses of old) and checks to make it cooperate against human to a limited degree. For the masochists.

This is just want I want to do, and it's only a matter of time to be available.

I really like your ideas on your vision for different difficulty levels. A lot of friends and coworkers recently got the game but are having a hard time adjusting to the steep learning curve. Some of them managed to learn through trial and error on the regular difficulty settings, but I know some others wanted like a sandbox tutorial mode type of difficulty to get them eased (I guess just more gently/nicely) into game.

 

[Metz]

Is the aggressive expansion limit before coalition 50 for the AI on normal difficulty? I fed Burgundy some provinces and it got up to 47 aggressive expansion and then the whole world declared war on them. Does the aggressive expansion limit change for the AI based on difficulty level?

 

[Metz]

Overall, there is limited value of looking more than 1 step into the future in this game any way due to the vast number of possible outcomes. If you can quantify how much you will immediately be better off by doing something, that's enough to make decisions that are reasonable in most cases. However, it does lead to things like FRA easily conquering Iberia because CAS/ARA/POR don't realize the future threat of destroying each other in intra-peninsular wars.

I don't think we'll ever attempt to incorporate a general planning system in EU4 due to performance reasons (disregarding the small detail of its implementation).

What about adding non-aggression pacts in game when one country is sensing another country may be a future threat? This way, Spain and Portugal or Castile and Aragon give each other a non-aggression pact if they feel France next door is getting too big. Or a non-aggression pact between Austria and Bohemia if they feel Poland is getting too big.

Non-aggression pact could be maybe 20 years?

 

[GizahNL]

Condottieri on Hard isn't aimed specifically against human, it also makes chances you can hire them greater as AI is more willing to offer them in general. Greater overall Condottieri use makes the game more dynamic and thus harder.

The game can be different in other ways on hard; AI does for instance cheat on revolt risk on Hard which leads to Timurids often holding together unlike on Normal. (This specific bonus we might find reason to nerf.)

I would eventually like to move most human specific checks to Very Hard. My vision for difficulty levels is:

Very Easy: AI extremely nice to human. We have a category of players for whom the game on Easy is too hard..
Easy: Same as now, perhaps disabling difficult features (and for Very Easy too).
Normal: Same as now.
Hard: Some light bonuses to AI in areas where it has problems (same as now, possibly reduced), advanced AI features, but "fair".
Very Hard: Very heavy bonuses to AI (similar to the bonuses of old) and checks to make it cooperate against human to a limited degree. For the masochists.

This is just want I want to do, and it's only a matter of time to be available.

LOVE IT
This is gonna be great on MP sessions. Would be even greater if we could toggle certain things on/off and the difficulty levels are considered presets...... But lets not ask for too much today...

It's 03:30 in the morning in Sweden. If you're up at this time then you shouldn't be thinking about AI!

I know its bad... but sometimes I end up dreaming about EU4 and full annexing countries and such.... Even had some weird ass dream where I was fabricating a CB to make a move on a girl.... So I'm not surprised about a dev still thinking about EU at 3:30

Is the aggressive expansion limit before coalition 50 for the AI on normal difficulty? I fed Burgundy some provinces and it got up to 47 aggressive expansion and then the whole world declared war on them. Does the aggressive expansion limit change for the AI based on difficulty level?

No it's 50 both for AI as for player, but if you gave the provinces I believe there is a UI bug that shows AE incorrectly calculated when giving provinces to alliance partner in peace deal.

 

[radiatoren]

I'm developing some power balancing stuff for the diplomatic AI on my own accord that's not close to finalized yet, hence I'm reluctant to delve into detail at this point. It's a part of the anti-blob crusade. I will start exposing defines to modders in the next major patch if everything stays.

By the way, you have done a very good job so far. I think people underestimate how much better the naval AI has become and how many of the subtle improvements in other areas are starting to make the AIs diplomatic understanding much better. There seems to be a bit of scaling on the newest mechanics, but that is to be expected when the mechanics aren't completely ripe themself.

Out of curiosity: Do you use spreadsheets to prototype numerical effects or has it reached a stage where you blackbox it and use model theory to look at the effects?