Features for Korea I'd Like to See

[Josph]

I can't help but notice the often overlooked nation of Korea, and I haven't really seen many suggestions to improve or at least add flavor to it either. Scrunched in between giant Ming and the military powerhouse of Japan and equipped with rather sub-par national ideas, Korea has little to no special appeal that might entice the average player to play it. Now, this is true for many other neglected nations, but I'd like to see a little bit more work done on Korea, a nation that had an important role in the history of the far east, not to mention an interesting political history. People have been speculating that the next DLC will focus on Asia, and I think this would be great opportunity to give some flavor to the Hermit Kingdom.


I'd like to start off with the Korean ideas, some of which don't really bring out the real traditions and identity of Joseon Korea imo.


* denotes a change



Traditions:


+25% Domestic Trade Power


*-5% Tech Cost


National Ideas:


*The Hangul Alphabet: -10% Development Cost, +5% Institution Spread


Grand Code for State Administration: -10% stability cost modifier


Hyang'yak System: +10% Production Efficiency


Geobukseon: +20% Galley Combat Ability, +5% Ship Durability


Kyujanggak: -10% Idea Cost


The Hopae System: +10% Manpower Modifier


Economic Reform: +10% National Tax Modifier


Ambitions:


+10% Land Fire Damage (Representing the Hwacha and 17th century Korean musketeers)

 

[Warial]

The Hangul Alphabet (It should be Hangul, not Hanguel, btw

It should be either Hangeul or Hangul. First one is the correct romanization per RR, second one is commonly used. Though if I recall correctly it is already spelled Hangul everywhere in the game.

MIL- Janggun Faction (Though this faction is fictional, the Janggun Faction representsthe influence of generals on Korean politics)

Generals were generally coming from literati class themselves and often aligned to factions present in the court. I'm not convinced there is any necessity for this faction.

 

[Josph]

Generals were generally coming from literati class themselves and often aligned to factions present in the court. I'm not convinced there is any necessity for this faction.

That is true, but I decided to add the faction for the sake of having a solely military faction to balance things out just so you won't be spending only Admin or dip trying to support the faction you want and sitting on a pile of unused mil points. It's also there to add a possibility for Korea to pursue a military route instead of a solely administrative one.

 

[Koramei]

Jeez dude, I'm gonna be pretty sorely disappointed if Korea doesn't get any updates but this is overkill. 15% tech and idea cost reduction? 20% artillery and 10% morale? These are in line with the highest bonuses in the game.

The reason Manchu gets 10% tech reduction but not Korea is because Manchu is supposed to be one of the strongest nations in the game- it's purposefully given extremely powerful ideas so it gets a shot at unifying into the Qing Dynasty. Now that hasn't worked in game (yet- hoping next patch it will) but by comparison Korea pretty much just needs to sit there and not die.

And for military bonuses... people do often look at the Imjin War through Japan's perspective without much understanding of what happened in Joseon- it wasn't necessarily an inevitability that the peninsula would be overrun so quickly, were it not for some terrible leadership- and likewise, the Joseon resistance after the initial losses aren't credited as much as they ought to be relative to just the Ming running in and saving the day. But even so, it's no lie that Korea's military wasn't remotely respected by its neighbors, and got completely overrun extremely quickly. And then repeatedly, again, during the Manchu invasions decades later. It's somewhat of a misrepresentation to say Joseon's land military was entirely incompetent, but they're definitely not calling out for some of the strongest land military ideas in the game.

Honestly I think Korea's ideas are pretty much fine. If they start underperforming relative to their neighbors (in 1.19 they're not, but right now they look in a bad spot in 1.20) then I might think differently, but I don't think they really need a buff to them right now.

That said, in terms of a more fitting military bonus than 10% infantry combat (which yeah, doesn't have much place in history), I'd actually go with the new modifier- land fire damage. Can represent both the hwacha and Korean musketry, which after their successive defeats at the turn of the 17th century got reformed to actually become pretty formidable.

Something to represent the righteous army and to stop the peninsula from being easy to pacify would be good too, but that should maybe wait until we get a good replacement for hostile core creation.


If we're talking about something unique for Korea to get though (sorry dude but I don't think Korea's crying out for a whole unique government type..), what I'd personally go with is the embracement or rejection of Hangul. It's a situation that's pretty interesting and pretty unique to Korea- essentially, historically, Hangul (the Korean alphabet) didn't become widely accepted after its introduction in the 15th century, because the Korean nobility really didn't like the idea of the general population being able to read- that'd been one of their privileges. Social mobility was severely lacking in Korea and Hangul threatened to introduce it, so just a few decades after its introduction it essentially got repealed from all government use. It was still learned by nobles, and was used widely by women and for letters to your family etc even while it wasn't used in court, but without state backing it never revolutionized literacy in Joseon like it potentially could have.

So for the mechanic, you could fight to actually introduce it properly. Maybe you could have a series of events, offering you first the choice to invent and embrace Hangul (or just reject it to ignore the potential penalty) which'd give some bonuses of some kind (tech/ideas/development, I dunno, whatever widespread literacy would give). Then over the course of the next 50 years or so, you'd get a series of successively worse and worse events, offering you the choice to repeal Hangul and lose the bonuses, or keep it but piss off your nobility. Loss of army tradition, legitimacy, maybe some rebels, then maybe even top it off with a noble coup at the end. I've never thought about the specific balance but you get the picture, you're fighting to introduce something that'll give you a significant bonus, but have to overcome the inertia of an extremely hierarchical and traditionalist state.


Aside from that, the provinces and terrain in Korea could do with an update- me and Bella Gerant made a couple of posts on it just the other day. 1.20 is (potentially, to be fair we haven't seen much of the update yet, maybe more is to come) gonna leave Korea at like a quarter of the strength of Japan, which is a bit silly. Over the course of the game's period Korea would get dramatically weaker and Japan would get stronger, but in 1444 they were to some extent peers. The development levels in game are more in line with the situation in 1910 after Japan had industrialized and Korea'd sat in a hole for several centuries than the historical situation before the Imjin War. I understand there are a variety of reasons to not go with the 1444 levels, but even so Korea could stand to have at least a few new provinces.

 

[Josph]

Jeez dude, I'm gonna be pretty sorely disappointed if Korea doesn't get any updates but this is overkill. 15% tech and idea cost reduction? 20% artillery and 10% morale? These are in line with the highest bonuses in the game.

The 15% reduction for tech and idea cost is overkill, I agree. That was a complete oversight on my part. So now here's where I'd ask for some help on balancing:
So here's my thought: make the hall of worthies give a -5% idea cost , and with the modified kyujanggak bonus of -5% idea cost that would be a total of -10%, but it doesnt give a reduction to tech cost. The tech cost reduction in the traditions would be changed to be a -5%. This would be effectively the same as the regular game, just that the bonuses are coming from different sources. The kyujanggak idea wasn't included in the list of ideas, as I replaced it with the Hwacha, but now I'd put it back.

The Hwacha idea will be removed and so will the morale increase, although I think the 10% morale increase isn't OP at all, as a matter of fact, it seems standard. But for ambitions, the land fire danage seems good.

Here are the new ideas:

Traditions:


+25% Domestic Trade Power


*-5% Tech Cost


National Ideas:


The Hangul Alphabet: -10% Development Cost, +10% Institution Spread


Grand Code for State Administration: -10% stability cost modifier


Hyang'yak System: +10% Production Efficiency


* Geobukseon: +20% Galley Combat Ability, +5% Ship Durability


*Kyujanggak: -5% Idea Cost


The Hopae System: +10% Manpower Modifier


Economic Reform: +10% National Tax Modifier


Ambitions:


+10% Land Fire Damage


Decisions:

Hall of Worthies: -5% Idea Cost

If we're talking about something unique for Korea to get though (sorry dude but I don't think Korea's crying out for a whole unique government type..), what I'd personally go with is the embracement or rejection of Hangul. It's a situation that's pretty interesting and pretty unique to Korea- essentially, historically, Hangul (the Korean alphabet) didn't become widely accepted after its introduction in the 15th century, because the Korean nobility really didn't like the idea of the general population being able to read- that'd been one of their privileges. Social mobility was severely lacking in Korea and Hangul threatened to introduce it, so just a few decades after its introduction it essentially got repealed from all government use. It was still learned by nobles, and was used widely by women and for letters to your family etc even while it wasn't used in court, but without state backing it never revolutionized literacy in Korea like it potentially could have (well, not until the 20th century).

The government form was a stretch, but I still think it's worth doing. The embracement/rejection of Hangul is a great gameplay idea, but it highlights a small bit of Korean politics. The main reason for Korea's instability, internalism, and loss of military power was because of the factional struggle within its society. I wouldn't even think it's that much of a stretch either: the Joseon government was markedly different from that of its neighbors. While still having undertones of a monarchy, it emphasized the power of the appointed officials and of the prime minister, and after a while the King started to lose his power and slowly became more and more of a figurehead while the officials would debate, much like the modern governments of Japan or England today, until Gojong formed the Korean Empire. Plenty of other nations have their own government: the Ottomans, the Japanese, the Polish and Lithuanians, the Mamluk Itqa, the Prussians, the English, the Netherlands, Milan, Dithsmarchen, and all of the theocracies. It wouldn't be so far fetched for the Koreans to get a unique government as well.

If you really think it's absolutely unecessary, I'll probably remove it.

Aside from that, the provinces and terrain in Korea could do with an update- me and Bella Gerant made a couple of posts on it just the other day. 1.20 is (potentially, to be fair we haven't seen much of the update yet, maybe more is to come) gonna leave Korea at like a quarter of the strength of Japan which is a bit silly. Over the course of the game's period Korea would get dramatically weaker and Japan would get stronger, but in 1444 they were to some extent peers. The development levels in game are more align with the situation in 1910 after Japan had industrialized and Korea'd sat in a hole for several centuries than the historical situation before the Imjin War. I understand there are a variety of reasons to not go with the 1444 levels, but even so Korea could stand to have at least a few new provinces.

A few new provinces would be nice, and I do agree that the development of a few provinces could be tweaked. But instead of focusing on fitting more provinces and developing provinces outrageously to keep Korea at a relative level early on, giving Korea a few internal boosts like with the factional system so it can possibly rival and best its neighbors if it manages internal stability well, or it can possibly become vulnerable to attack because of factional strife like in real life.

Thanks for your input, and I hope you either am content with the changes or continue to give me your criticisms.

 

[Sadino]

I actually like bringing the Hwacha into national ideas, and artillery combat bonus is relatively unique among nations, it's just - +20% is overkill. That's double the bonus of any artillery combat ability boost in the game. Maybe cut back on the galley combat boost for turtle ships as well, but I'm less sure on that one because navies are generally kinda weak ideas anyway just because of how naval combat is.

I don't like idea cost, tech cost, dev cost *and* institution spread all being in one national idea group - I know that you want to give Korea an option to play tall and be a technological powerhouse of East Asia, but that's just a bit too much. Especially with a further additional special national decision to further decrease idea and/or tech cost implementation. If I were to give my personal opinion based on my (admittedly very limited) knowledge of Korea and based on the current structure, I'd put development cost reduction in the traditions, give Hangul Institution spread, and make the Hall of Worthies give a tech cost reduction plus the current prestige. But that's just my thoughts.

I don't think Korea's quite worth having it's own special government mechanics at this point. True, things like the Ambrosian Republic and the Peasant Republic are 'special', but mechanically the only difference is a change in boosts - they otherwise operate like any other republic. So if you want a "Joseon Monarchy' with different bonuses but otherwise similar to any other monarchy, that's one thing, but I don't think it needs a fully fleshed out set of changes. It's fairly low on the list of 'needs special mechanics', imho. (sorry if that sounds callous)

 

[Dooma]

While others have already commented that Korea is "fairly low on the list of nations that need special mechanics" I certainly do not think this means they should not get one period. In the perfect version of EU4 twenty years and 200 patches in the future, every nation has a special government, unique and historically accurate national ideas, and a multitude of specific national events.

Your ideas are great and seem well researched, although as others have commented they are way too overpowered. That being said, while I am certainly no scholar of the region, my understanding is that Korea was never weak in its own right during this period, it was just weak in comparison to those massive powerhouse nations that surrounded it. With China receiving numerous changes and Japan receiving potential buffs, it is more than possible that Korea will need something to keep up in the patches to come and I would much rather see changes like this than a simple increase to base development.

 

[Josph]

I actually like bringing the Hwacha into national ideas, and artillery combat bonus is relatively unique among nations, it's just - +20% is overkill. That's double the bonus of any artillery combat ability boost in the game. Maybe cut back on the galley combat boost for turtle ships as well, but I'm less sure on that one because navies are generally kinda weak ideas anyway just because of how naval combat is.

I don't like idea cost, tech cost, dev cost *and* institution spread all being in one national idea group - I know that you want to give Korea an option to play tall and be a technological powerhouse of East Asia, but that's just a bit too much. Especially with a further additional special national decision to further decrease idea and/or tech cost implementation. If I were to give my personal opinion based on my (admittedly very limited) knowledge of Korea and based on the current structure, I'd put development cost reduction in the traditions, give Hangul Institution spread, and make the Hall of Worthies give a tech cost reduction plus the current prestige. But that's just my thoughts.

I don't think Korea's quite worth having it's own special government mechanics at this point. True, things like the Ambrosian Republic and the Peasant Republic are 'special', but mechanically the only difference is a change in boosts - they otherwise operate like any other republic. So if you want a "Joseon Monarchy' with different bonuses but otherwise similar to any other monarchy, that's one thing, but I don't think it needs a fully fleshed out set of changes. It's fairly low on the list of 'needs special mechanics', imho. (sorry if that sounds callous)

So yeah, the Hwacha has been significantly nerfed, that was an oversight on my part; I didn't look at any other national ideas with artillery bonus. The ideas have been updated to be more balanced and the artillery boost has been changed to a +10% land fire damage that will be in the ambitions to represent the Korean musketeers in the later 17th century as well as the Hwacha.

The idea cost boost remains, as it's the same as the in-game ideas. The tech boost has been nerfed back to the -5% that the in game ideas have. Dev cost and institution spread can easily be nerfed down to -10% development cost and +5% institution spread, and it wouldn't be that OP either, there are plenty of national ideas with a -10% dev cost and something else, like Finland, Ajuuran, and Polotsk. I think giving development cost reduction straight up would be a bit overpowered, so I'd still put it as an idea. The 5% institution spread is marginal, so it's more of a side boost to the Hangul national idea. The Hall of Worthies was more of a think tank than a tech institution. Sure, the ideas and discoveries coming out of that organization led to technological revolutions, but I'd say the idea boost would fit much better than a tech boost. Maybe it could give prestige, since I've modified it to cost more, but perhaps a bit less prestige.

I completely get where you're coming from in your criticism in the Joseon monarchy. What I'm proposing won't be any new gameplay mechanics, it's simply just adding a faction system like Ming's. The government would basically be exactly like a normal monarchy, but would just have a faction system and a bit more events that would add more dynamic conflict within the faction system. It is low on the list of 'needs special mechanics,' I agree, but it doesn't completely rule out the possibility of it having it's own government, which is basically a combination of a regular monarchy and Ming's faction system. If you see in the link in the previous sentence, you'll see that Korea shares the same priority level with the Mamluks and Milan, both of which have unique government forms.



I have made changes to the original post that will reflect all the changes up to this point. Once again, thanks for your input. The Korean monarchy seems to be a point of contention, so I'll be thinking over that a bit more.

 

[Koramei]

The government form was a stretch, but I still think it's worth doing. The embracement/rejection of Hangul is a great gameplay idea, but it highlights a small bit of Korean politics. The main reason for Korea's instability, internalism, and loss of military power was because of the factional struggle within its society. I wouldn't even think it's that much of a stretch either: the Joseon government was markedly different from that of its neighbors. While still having undertones of a monarchy, it emphasized the power of the appointed officials and of the prime minister, and after a while the King started to lose his power and slowly became more and more of a figurehead while the officials would debate, much like the modern governments of Japan or England today, until Gojong formed the Korean Empire. Plenty of other nations have their own government: the Ottomans, the Japanese, the Polish and Lithuanians, the Mamluk Itqa, the Prussians, the English, the Netherlands, Milan, Dithsmarchen, and all of the theocracies. It wouldn't be so far fetched for the Koreans to get a unique government as well.

Factional struggles like this were endemic to a lot of countries of the era, is the problem. Korea's were unique to some extent to its situation, but you can say the same about many of the other countries. I don't think Korea necessarily calls for its own entire faction system- keep in mind those are a touted feature of an expansion when they're introduced, e.g. in Res Publica and the revolutionary one in Rights of Man, I imagine it takes a fair bit of work to make them so the devs aren't gonna include them as an afterthought. Whereas the introduction of Hangul- while you're right that it's perhaps more symptomatic of the troubles already in the Korean court, rather than being its own thing- is a fairly easy to digest and (I imagine) simpler to develop than a whole faction system, while still showing off something unique to Korea.

I had totally forgotten just how many unique governments there are in the game though, you're right, I was just thinking of the big ones like England, Prussia, Netherlands etc. I think without a faction system though, there wouldn't be all that much to set Korea apart from a regular despotic monarchy.

but it doesn't completely rule out the possibility of it having it's own government, which is basically a combination of a regular monarchy and Ming's faction system.

Do you think a mechanic for Confucianism could be a good place to include something like this, rather than a whole new government? Since that'd be unique to Korea and China.