Feast and Famine in 2.2.4: I need some help with consumer goods in the first decades

[Secret Master]

Okay, with the new patch, it turns out we have plenty of minerals to harvest. Those +7 deposits really make a difference. So much so that I'm in a game right now where I'm swapping my few remaining mines over to energy and food, because I keep capping out minerals and the price is so bad that energy generation seems like a great investment. I'll get more mines later, but it's only 40 years in. I get plenty from space.

However, I'm facing a different problem. When playing a regular empire that uses consumer goods, I still cannot optimize consumer goods properly. In previous games, I'd face some difficulties balancing minerals needed for alloys, consumer goods, and for expanding districts and buildings. Well, now I have plenty of minerals, but I still seem to suffer for consumer goods or I have too many and I fall behind alloys. I could supply 50 more consumer goods factories with minerals without a problem, but build slots aren't free nor infinite in number.

My questions are complicated, so let me ask them in sequence.

1) Do I build an alloy factory first or a consumer goods factory when the first new building slot opens on the capital? I've been doing alloys, but...

2) Since researchers eat lots of consumer goods, when do you build a research lab? I've tried not building any for 50 years, but then I was so behind in tech that it took 167 months to research the Flesh is Weak project.

3) I've been colonizing 4-5 new planets during the first 50 years. Obviously this has an impact on sprawl, but am I shooting myself in the foot with the extra POPs working colonist jobs all at the same time?

4) I've been putting gene clinics and robot production facilities on all new colonies as the first and second buildings. Obviously, those medical workers eat more consumer goods, but I've been addicted to POP growth since the game was released. Since robots only need minerals, am I shooting myself in the foot for extra POP growth by building the clinic too early (or at all)?

5) Culture buildings... Unity is kind of important. I've tried running a no-unity building strategy, but I seem to fall horribly behind in traditions. But those culture workers consume a ton of consumer goods. Sometimes I put the unity building as the 4th building on a planet. This nets me plenty of unity, but it's also 2 workers eating extra consumer goods.


The catch with all this is that when I get past year 50 or so, I'm usually fine on consumer goods. I can make up small shortfalls by either buying from the market or directly trading with allies. (I found an ally in my current game that is apparently bad at growing food, so I trade food directly for consumer goods at a competitive rate.) But it's getting past the early game that is difficult for me. I can't compromise alloy production too much (the AI will attack you in 2230 if you don't build a fleet), but I can't spend thousands of energy credits buying consumer goods in 2240 either.

 

[AlanC9]

Well, in order:

1) Do I build an alloy factory first or a consumer goods factory when the first new building slot opens on the capital? I've been doing alloys, but...

I'd go with alloys too. The starting CG stockpile will last for quite a while; you might need alloys soon, but you won't need CG.

2) Since researchers eat lots of consumer goods, when do you build a research lab? I've tried not building any for 50 years, but then I was so behind in tech that it took 167 months to research the Flesh is Weak project.

I build a research lab pretty soon too. After that's up, then it's time to worry about establishing more CG production.

3) I've been colonizing 4-5 new planets during the first 50 years. Obviously this has an impact on sprawl, but am I shooting myself in the foot with the extra POPs working colonist jobs all at the same time?

The colonists aren't so much of a problem since they've been created out of thin air (assuming Expansion tradition.) But yeah, at 5 I think there will be a problem with immigration being spread out, since fractional pops do nothing for you. It's a tradeoff between immediate strength and strength later. Maybe only 3 until the first couple are up and running.

4) I've been putting gene clinics and robot production facilities on all new colonies as the first and second buildings. Obviously, those medical workers eat more consumer goods, but I've been addicted to POP growth since the game was released. Since robots only need minerals, am I shooting myself in the foot for extra POP growth by building the clinic too early (or at all)?

5) Culture buildings... Unity is kind of important. I've tried running a no-unity building strategy, but I seem to fall horribly behind in traditions. But those culture workers consume a ton of consumer goods. Sometimes I put the unity building as the 4th building on a planet. This nets me plenty of unity, but it's also 2 workers eating extra consumer goods.

Medical workers are a kind of sucky job, yeah. I'm coming around to leaving gene clinics until slot four, or even holding off until I need more amenities on the planet. That's what I'd hold off on building in favor of more CG factories. I think you want the unity buildings in the early game because you can pick up the first couple of trees really fast.

 

[klingonadmiral]

I'd go with alloys too. The starting CG stockpile will last for quite a while; you might need alloys soon, but you won't need CG.

I sell my CGs immediately to recruit a scientist to man the second science ship I order day 1.

 

[The Boz]

Policies are your friends. Getting early trade going, together with Consumer Benefits, means you can run Military economy and build not a single new CivInd building for decades, if trade systems aren't of a hostile configuration.

 

[Secret Master]

Policies are your friends. Getting early trade going, together with Consumer Benefits, means you can run Military economy and build not a single new CivInd building for decades, if trade systems aren't of a hostile configuration.

I'm already running consumer goods from trade law. I didn't mention it, since I thought everyone did it.

 

[TheGrouch91]

I'm afraid it's a simple case of "can't have it all". You can't have tons of med labs, robot factories, alloy foundries, research labs and enough raw resources at the same time. Anyway a few things that I found out so far:

• What's your average habitability? Low habitability makes it really hard to keep up with food and consumer goods. More than people might think.
• Med labs and roboticists are all lategame investments. They will massively slow you down early game if you deploy them everywhere. It's a trade off.
• Do you use the culture workers or the entertainers for unity? I find the actual culture building really underwhelming in terms of early game efficiency. The theatre actually has a better consumer goods to unity ratio and also boosts your overall output with the extra amenities. Only thing you're missing out on is the social research which is okay for me.
• Yes colonizing a ton will slow you down early game. But unless you only focus on military and get new colonies through conquest you will fall behind lategame when you don't grab enough planets early on.

 

[Secret Master]

I'm afraid it's a simple case of "can't have it all". You can't have tons of med labs, robot factories, alloy foundries, research labs and enough raw resources at the same time.

I'm not sure you understand my questions.

As I indicated, I have plenty of minerals. 2.2.4 has made minerals much more common in space. Hell, in my current game, I'm at year 2300, and this is my current mineral break down:

I suppose I'll start building some mines in the next year or so, but minerals aren't even close to my main bottleneck. Running robots on every planet? No big deal. Funneling minerals to consumer goods and alloy factories? Not even a big deal.

But getting the consumer goods I need manufactured in the first 30-60 years of the game is a problem. I'm not starved for minerals; it's a question of allocating labor.

 

[The Boz]

I'm already running consumer goods from trade law. I didn't mention it, since I thought everyone did it.

I'll more often get Marketplace of Ideas instead, at least for the first few years; kick-starting some early traditions is really valuable.

 

[Nussor]

1) Build an Autochton Monument instead. Early game science and unity buffs are pretty strong because of how they scale with tiers and interact with empire sprawl. I'd start constructing CG factories once your first colony unlocks a new slot, and only to complement my other CG income sources.
2) Directly after 1).
3) 4-5 planets sound reasonable, if they have good habitability, but I would wait with the first colony until your early game economy has stabilized.
4) Those buildings are deceivingly good. If you play Sim City, its the way to go, but if you spawn near an aggressive, powerful AI or, gods beware, a human, don't build them until you got your Alloy production running. One robo factory might be okay to get an important colony running.
5) See 1). Unity cost really explodes after the first two or three traditions, which makes continuous investment futile. Rush your first three traditions, then take a break from unity production and spam a few buildings during a midgame lull.

Now, you came here out of concern over consumer goods and I tell you to spend even more of them. I have been playing a few semi-competitive games since release and my take on the new economy is that nothing but alloys and science actually matters. Everything else just serves to facilitate those two, with the exception of unity - and the best way to generate unity is to reduce your empire sprawl. Rare resources are usually best harvested from orbital mining stations and the depots seem to be plentiful enough to even sell them on the market. Consumer goods can be obtained from the market and from Consumer Benefits, while you can sell a small part of your alloy production to balance your income. In turn you should see to reduce the number of useless pops, planets and systems; it can be more benefitial to just beat down an opponent and ruin their economy than actually taking (all of) their stuff, especially in the short run. Conquering planets, especially badly optimized AI worlds, can be a serious burden on your economy.

 

[TheGrouch91]

I'm not sure you understand my questions.

As I indicated, I have plenty of minerals. 2.2.4 has made minerals much more common in space. Hell, in my current game, I'm at year 2300, and this is my current mineral break down:

View attachment 443775

I suppose I'll start building some mines in the next year or so, but minerals aren't even close to my main bottleneck. Running robots on every planet? No big deal. Funneling minerals to consumer goods and alloy factories? Not even a big deal.

But getting the consumer goods I need manufactured in the first 30-60 years of the game is a problem. I'm not starved for minerals; it's a question of allocating labor.

I'm not saying you're starved for minerals. I'm saying that you make it sound as if you wanted to have all the nice things at once. Which you simply can't. If you build med labs, unity buildings, research buildings and roboticists it will slow you down. You will have to allocate most of your stuff to consumer goods then and won't have many alloys or vice versa.

And maybe I don't understand your questions, fair enough. I simply don't have a problem with consumer goods. I normally dedicate 1 or 2 planets (depending on how many potential colonies I can get) and then whenever I need some more I simply build a factory. Small shortages can be fixed with the market for a short time. What exactly is your bottleneck? Building space? I mean if you have more than enough minerals I don't see what stops you from simply plopping a factory or two down on one of your planets.

The screenshot only shows that you have way too much food. Also I don't know where you guys get all the 7 minerals stations from. I've gotten none so far.

 

[klingonadmiral]

together with Consumer Benefits

You should only switch though once you've got the 300 energy to clear the Sprawling Slums TB to get the extra pop.

 

[Secret Master]

Now, you came here out of concern over consumer goods and I tell you to spend even more of them. I have been playing a few semi-competitive games since release and my take on the new economy is that nothing but alloys and science actually matters.

Hmm, you make an interesting point.

while you can sell a small part of your alloy production to balance your income.

So, by spamming alloys, I can just make up consumer goods deficits by selling alloys. Is that really efficient in 2.2.4? In 2.2.3, it always seemed like I was getting a raw deal if I made that kind of trade on the market (more than a little).

 

[Dalwin]

I'm already running consumer goods from trade law. I didn't mention it, since I thought everyone did it.

actually I take unity from trade.

 

[Nussor]

Well, artisans produce twice as much CG as you get Alloys from your foundries, but the market price of Alloys is usually higher than that, even accounting for the market fee. You can get CG from Trade Value, which is preferable. Alloys are also more flexible - try converting CG into Alloys or Credits during emergencies and you know what I mean. For mature midgame empires, having an industry world might be feasible, but I wouldn't bother with it in the beginning.

 

[Dalwin]

So, by spamming alloys, I can just make up consumer goods deficits by selling alloys. Is that really efficient in 2.2.4? In 2.2.3, it always seemed like I was getting a raw deal if I made that kind of trade on the market (more than a little).

From 2.2.0 through 2.2.3 the market had a major flaw that is fixed for the first time in 2.2.4. Basically no matter whether the AI was buying or selling goods the price always went up. That is the source of most of the imbalanced economic plans that were able to ride on the market's back. Anyone who has not switched to 2.2.4 will be in for a real shock when they eventually play with a fixed market.

 

[Secret Master]

From 2.2.0 through 2.2.3 the market had a major flaw that is fixed for the first time in 2.2.4. Basically no matter whether the AI was buying or selling goods the price always went up. That is the source of most of the imbalanced economic plans that were able to ride on the market's back. Anyone who has not switched to 2.2.4 will be in for a real shock when they eventually play with a fixed market.

Well, that's true. The market is not giving me nearly the prices it was before. I actually care about bi-lateral trades with allies now.

Alloys are also more flexible - try converting CG into Alloys or Credits during emergencies and you know what I mean.

Hmm, you may be right. I might give it a try.

 

[AppleBeam]

A few random suggestions regarding the consumer goods shortage:

• Right at the start of the game, switch the trade policy to Consumer Benefits. It's not a lot, but every bit helps (over 50 years it accumulates to some decent number).
• Prioritize consumer good over science until you grabbed every single system you are allowed to (including ones with 0 habitability). Just don't build any labs in general during this period, and postpone non-engineering space stations. By "allowed to grab" I mean both "can grab" and "there is no imminent danger of being destroyed by militaristic xenophobic neighbor if you are building colony ships instead of more fleet". Each start is different, but a good number to aim for is 10-20 planets without any conquering. Lucky starts can get you much more than that, cramped starts also happen, but it's an entirely different story.
• The goal is to over-produce enough CG and alloys to always build colony ships if you see non-colonized planets in reach. When you run out of planets, you'll start stockpiling a bit, and it should amortize the dip in GC production that you'll get when the new colonies will just start to grow (they have other top-priority investments, such as a few resource districts, an upgrade, and a robotic factory, then you can strart building factories assuming your amenities are not absolutely terrible).

The reason to ignore the science in the early game is simple: late game science wins you the game, but to produce a lot of science you need a powerful economy and a lot of pops. However, the only early game tech you really want is Robotic Workers (requires Powered Exoskeletons), because of how much it boosts your overall growth. Other than that you need some minimal military tech to survive vs aggressive AI (most likely lasers since there is almost nothing useful in early Physics techs), and ofc. grabbing growth bonuses early on is also nice. And that's it. There is nothing more in the early game techs that actually makes a lot of immediate difference and can't wait for a few decades. Also, ignore various +10% science techs, they are useless early on (see below), use them for cheap rerolls of techs you don't want.

Once you grabbed every planet you could, and each of your planets is upgraded from a colony to a full scale planet (preferably with robotic plants), that's when you should start mass-building labs. Btw, populate barely inhabitable planets with robots. If you can't for whatever reason (got screwed by the tech roulette, for example) and the consumer goods shortage is killing you, just keep exactly 1 pop there and postpone the upgrade. You grab planets for growth (to resettle to better worlds), and 1 colonist suffering form 0% habitability will just consume the double amount of specialist goods, which is nothing. It's better to find an opportunity to quickly resettle to 10 pops and upgrade the colony, but this is a lower priority than grabbing planets.

Regarding the sprawl: ignore the admin cap completely, at any point in the game, especially at the beginning. It's meaningless. Yes, if your admin cap is 70, with 400 sprawl techs will cost you about twice more than with 70 sprawl. Sounds pretty bad, yep. However, you are more likely to produce ~5 times more tech with 400 sprawl, so in general your science is going to be a lot better if you go wide.

Regarding the early tech and ignoring bonuses: this is not a Civ game, there is no magic opportunity window you are getting by unlocking a tech before your opponents, and only a couple of early game techs contribute to the snowball effect. You are not losing anything by postponing the techs until the moment your science production is awesome, as long as your army is strong enough to not die.

If by the year 2250 you barely have any labs, but your pop is 200-300 and the economy is very strong, in the next 15-20 years you can easily boost your science to ~1000, and quickly pick up every tech you missed so far. This is why early bonuses are useless, btw. For example, you could complete Discovery traditions as your first pick for extra 10%. However, all the extra science you will accumulate with this bonus during the entire early game is equivalent to a few monthly ticks in the midgame. Ticks that could be a lot more powerful if you grabbed Expansion instead and had more territory and pops. Techs will cost about twice more (depending on how wide you went), but you will be producing many times more science, so it doesn't matter, and that's when 10% become a lot more meaningful.

At some point, the situation will start to suck anyway. I suggest aiming for Ecumenopolis with all your tech picks (Weather Control Systems + Anti-Gravity Engineering in Engineering techs), and optionally for terraforming your existing planets.

Or there is an easy mode: ignore everything I said, start with the First League precursor, get a free Ecumenopolis ASAP and you'll never have a shortage of consumer goods and/or alloys through the entire game. #perfectlybalanced

upd: unity is also meaningless in the early game. I'm generally grabbing the monument as my first building in the capital to ensure I have reduced influence costs, extra colonist and growth as soon as possible. After that, I barely build any until my economy is strong; there is nothing that really helps in the early game, and all cool ascension perks except for Executive Vigor (which also helps with consumer goods quite a bit) are locked behind the midgame tech wall.

 

[Less2]

1) Do I build an alloy factory first or a consumer goods factory when the first new building slot opens on the capital? I've been doing alloys, but...

Absolutely alloy. You need science vessels, you need outposts, you need starbases, you need fleets, you need colony ships. These all pay for themselves. What does stockpiling CGs pay for? Some research lab in 30 years?

2) Since researchers eat lots of consumer goods, when do you build a research lab? I've tried not building any for 50 years, but then I was so behind in tech that it took 167 months to research the Flesh is Weak project.

Not for a while. 50 years is a bit much but I do space science only for at least 15-30 years. If you want to be OP then take Technocracy, I've made Grand Admiral AIs inferior in tech without a single research lab in my empire (though lots of planets with free leaders running research).

3) I've been colonizing 4-5 new planets during the first 50 years. Obviously this has an impact on sprawl, but am I shooting myself in the foot with the extra POPs working colonist jobs all at the same time?

If you can keep your pops employed working jobs that produce resources its almost certainly a good idea to continue what you are doing, if not colonizing a lot more. I'd shoot for 10+. A lot has to do with how optimized you are for low-habitability planets though. If you have robots and/or slaves you should be good.

4) I've been putting gene clinics and robot production facilities on all new colonies as the first and second buildings. Obviously, those medical workers eat more consumer goods, but I've been addicted to POP growth since the game was released. Since robots only need minerals, am I shooting myself in the foot for extra POP growth by building the clinic too early (or at all)?

This is shooting yourself in the foot. I know some people disagree, but I find the clinic to be awful. It takes 55 years for a pop working the clinic to produce another pop, and in the meantime you've lost a building slot and paid for an expensive middle class worker. That's bad alone, but when you ALSO run a robot production facility then its no wonder you're dying for lack of CGs/research. Needing 15 pops before you can work a single useful job beyond basic resources? Heavens no!

TL;DR: Keep the robot production facility, dump the gene clinic.

5) Culture buildings... Unity is kind of important. I've tried running a no-unity building strategy, but I seem to fall horribly behind in traditions. But those culture workers consume a ton of consumer goods. Sometimes I put the unity building as the 4th building on a planet. This nets me plenty of unity, but it's also 2 workers eating extra consumer goods.

Building a unity building on every planet is also a bad idea IMO, especially early game, for the same reason you don't want a gene clinic and robot production facility. Doing all 3 would mean 20 pops before planets produce real stuff, that's nuts!

Again I know some people disagree, but Entertainers are amazing and some people are very wrong. Don't get amenities through clerks or gene labs or other stuff, get them from entertainers who also produce 2/3rds the unity of a culture building. You can't beat this deal, honestly. You throw down one holo-theater per planet and its almost like you also built a unity building, and it costs less CGs to run than the unity guys.

In general unity is boosted just by being big now, since sprawl doesn't scale up as quickly as production and its impossible to really focus on unity with most empires.

 

[EdGreyfox]

This is one of the reasons I always restart new games until I get a starting planet in the SE part of the map, and make finishing the first league precursor event a priority. Having that early ecumenopolis to churn out the consumer goods (and alloys) early on means I don't need to prioritize building CG factories on my other worlds over all the other things I want first.

 

[TheGrouch91]

This is one of the reasons I always restart new games until I get a starting planet in the SE part of the map, and make finishing the first league precursor event a priority. Having that early ecumenopolis to churn out the consumer goods (and alloys) early on means I don't need to prioritize building CG factories on my other worlds over all the other things I want first.

Yeah savescumming sure is the best strategy.