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Doomdark

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Davout,

1. Albrecht Wallenstein - The only 30 year war general to beat Gustavus Adolphus (Battle of Alte Feste), and with a tactically inferior army.

I find this statement somewhat suspicious for two reasons:

1) This battle was an attempt by Gustavus to storm Wallenstein's heavily fortified (Alte Veste was actually a castle) and numerically superior army. Thus Wallenstein's army actually enjoyed a great tactical advantage.

2) Wallenstein was a pragmatic and competent man, no doubt about it. However, his philosophy was that it was better to starve an enemy than to fight him openly, which he proved nicely by digging in at Alte Veste. (No matter that his own soldiers fared almost as badly as the Swedes during the long stand-off.) Where Gustavus led his men from the front, Wallenstein skulked behind the lines. Thus I would definitely not call him either brave or admirable.
 

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Seeing as how most everyone else is advocating generals from their own countries I will presume to do the same. Swedish military prowess has always been associated with her kings, who tended to command the army personally (especially the so called 'warrior kings' of the 17th century).

Aside from the monarchs themselves, there were two shining examples of brilliant military leadership. I am talking of two tireless Swedish generals whose joint efforts in the 30 Years War were essential to the final victory.

Johan Banér (1596-1641) was perhaps Gustavus Adolphus's most trusted and competent general, who eventually came to replace Gustav Horn as field marshal of the Swedish army following the debacle at Nördlingen in 1634. From this point on the Swedish army would not lose a single significant field battle until peace was finally signed in 1648.

Banér was a brutal man, much harsher than the late King, and did not hesitate to order the pillaging and destruction of recalcitrant towns and villages. He was also a notorious drunkard, but he happened to be one of those rare individuals who almost function better drunk than they do sober. Banér and his reorganized army won a great victory at Wittstock in 1636. The following year he carried out a masterly retreat (the famous Retreat from Torgau) from Saxony to Swedish Pommerania, evading a much superior imperial army through several devious maneuvers and feints. He won another major victory at Chemnitz in 1639.

In 1641 he attempted a surprise winter attack on the emperor and his reichstag in Regensburg, but narrowly missed capturing the whole gathering. The French contingent, for reasons unknown, suddenly abandoned the cause, shattering all hopes of a final victory that year. Banér died (his liver probably gave up on him) during the march away from Regensburg in 1641.

Banér was a great proponent of mobile warfare and tended to leave the heavy artillery behind so that the army could march faster. While his quick maneuvers frequently surprised the enemy and won several field battles, the lack of siege artillery became a problem since fortified cities were almost impossible to take.


Lennart Torstensson (1603-1651) was another of Gustavus's disciples, whose superior use of artillery greatly contributed to the victory at Breitenfeld in 1631. He succeeded Banér as commander in chief in 1641. The Germans and Austrians came to call him 'the Snake who followed the Scorpion'. The Scorpion was of course Banér. Unlike Banér, Torstensson was originally a commoner who rose quickly in the ranks due to his talent and dedication.

When he assumed command of the army he suffered greatly from severe arthritis which often forced him to remain immobile or be carried in a palanquin. He requested to be relieved of his duty several times, since he did not consider himself 'fit for fight'. His requests were denied until 1646 to the great sorrow of the Emperor. :)

Torstensson was even better than Banér at getting maximum effect out of the artillery, quickly redeploying it on the battlefield and devastating the enemy ranks from unsuspected angles. He won the second battle of Breitenfeld in 1642, crushed the Danes in the war of 1643-1645 and contributed greatly to the long-delayed end of the 30YW by destroying the last great imperial army at Jankow in 1645. In recognition of his tireless efforts, he was given the title of Count in 1647. IMO he was the single greatest general Sweden has ever known, not counting the monarchs.

/Doomie
 

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1. What do you people think would have happened if no foreign powers had helped the Rebels (or Patriots, depending on one's views! :D). Do you believe Britain would have been able to win the war, or the country still would have been to vast to be militarily controlled against the population's will?

The Americans could possibly have won but it would have been very difficult. One of the reasons that the Battle of Saratoga is considered such a turning point in the war is that the victory convinced France (and later Spain) that the Patriots had a real chance of winning. The troops the French provided were very useful (they made up a key contingent at Yorktown) but the French navy was even more important. It was the French fleet that boxed Cornwallis in at Yorktown. Also, the French, Spanish and Dutch were fighting the British elsewhere (Caribean, India, etc.), preventing the British from bringing more forces to the Revolution.

Let's put it this way. If England brought its full force against America, there was no hope. The European interventions made that impossible.

2. I believe that the British generalship was especially poor during this war. Could this be true?

The generals weren't awful but they were not brilliant either. First thing you have to remember is that the British/European style of fighting was not well suited to America. While the Americans fought with the European style on occasion, they were also very good at taking cover, hit-and-run tactics, retreating into hard to access areas and the like. Many of the British generals could not cope with this, especially early in the war.

Of course, there were situations that were downright embarrassing. At Boston, General Howe failed to seize the high ground which allowed Washington to put cannons there and force the British to evacuate. At Princeton, Cornwallis could have probably defeated Washington's army for good but he delayed the attack until the next morning and by then Washington's troops had evacuated in the night and defeated him the next morning. The plan that led to the loss Burgoyne's army at Saratoga was poorly planned and poorly implemented. And Cornwallis decision to camp at Yorktown where he could only be evacuated by sea was downright stupid.

On the other hand, the American generals were often inexperienced and many of them were officers only because of political connections. Even Washington blundered seriously on several occasions - he almost lost it all at New York. And for those examples of excellent European imports, there were many that were awful.

3. I have a US 1967 encyclopedia at home that states that out of the population in the Thirteen Colonies in 1775, 1/3 was for war against Britain, 1/3 was for remaining loyal to Britain, and 1/3 remained neutral throughout the war. Any comments?

That's the way I was taught. Actually, there is a monument near my home in honor of 'Tory Corner', an area where loyalists congregated during the war (yes, I do find the memorial to be strange). Remeber that in 1763, the Americans were very loyal British subjects after the French had been driven from North America.

4. I imagine that atrocities were commited during the war, but I know nothing about this. I take it that Tarleton had a poor reputation among the Rebels/Patriots, but I am not too sure. I would be very grateful to you if you could provide me with any information on this subject.

Info on Tarleton

Tarleton received his bad reputation at Waxhaws where his army refused quarter to a surrendering American force. Reports state that his troops not only attacked surrendering troops but also bayoneted the wounded, even making the effort to lift dead bodies off of wounded soldiers so they could finish them off. Burning down houses and killing livestock did not help either.

P.S.: Pole, I agree with you, although perhaps the verb tense in your sentence should be in the past. The British Empire DIDN'T usually lose to rabble. What kind of Empire is there left? (sigh)

You'll always have the Falkland Islands... ;)
 

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Doomdark, Doomdark :)


You _hate_ it when someone challenges the power of Gustavus II, don't you? :D


Listen, technically he lost the battle. Didn't he? Yes? OK, well then he lost it :) It's as simple as that. We all know Gustavus was a top notch commander, but he was not invincible.


Sapura
 

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Unfortunately, a few rebels who were hiding in the city after the British arrived did set fire to various buildings and a substantial part of the city did burn down.

DK - A very interesting post in all, I didn't know the background on the '1/3rds' was from Adams. I only highlighted the above quote because I had understood that (1) the fire didn't damage too much of NY and (2) it was set by the British to punish colonists who had colluded with the Continental Army. I'm going to look into this and see if I can get some more details.
 

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Originally posted by Jiminov:
DK - A very interesting post in all, I didn't know the background on the '1/3rds' was from Adams. I only highlighted the above quote because I had understood that (1) the fire didn't damage too much of NY and (2) it was set by the British to punish colonists who had colluded with the Continental Army. I'm going to look into this and see if I can get some more details.
It is also my understanding that the fire only damaged a small part of New York City. However, I have read that it was the work of a few rebels who hadn't evacuated. I don't see why the British would start a fire; after occupying the city they could easily have punished pro-rebel New Yorkers in any manner they saw fit.
 

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Originally posted by Doomdark:
Very interesting... In every account of the battle I've read the Saxons are said to have fled, exposing the right flank. Could you point me in the direction of a more reliable source?

/Doomie

Ok Doomie here it comes...

Sven Lundkvist 'Slaget vid Breitenfeld 1631' i Historisk Tidskrift 1963.

It is a throughly analysis of the battle and the sources from which the description was reconstruction. He kills myths that have lived for 332 years. :)

/Greven
 

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Sapura,

Listen, technically he lost the battle. Didn't he? Yes? OK, well then he lost it It's as simple as that. We all know Gustavus was a top notch commander, but he was not invincible.

Umm, I am not saying anything else. Davout claimed that Wallenstein won with a 'tactically inferior army'. This is nonsense, since his army was:

a) Dug in.

b) Larger.

I would call that a distinct tactical advantage.

Furthermore, I pointed out that Wallenstein was not a very admirable person. I could certainly never see him as anything other than a 'favorite' villain.
 

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Greven,

Sven Lundkvist 'Slaget vid Breitenfeld 1631' i Historisk Tidskrift 1963.

Thanks, but that magazine might be a bit difficult to obtain... Strange that this text did not have a wider impact considering that modern historians still tell of how the majority of the Saxons broke away and fled.

If you feel like it, could you mail me a quick summary of Lundkvist's account? :)

In the meantime I will attempt to find that text somehow.

/Doomie
 

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a) Dug in.

Usually a sieging army (based on sane principles) needs a 3:1 numerical advantage to be able to take a well guarded fort, not going into specific details - say the armies are equally well equipped.


b) Larger.

I don't know about the exact quantities of both armies. What were they?


I would call that a distinct tactical advantage.

Well, for one thing I wouldn't call this an actual straight out and out battle. Sieges are one thing, open field battles are another. From what I've read this was not a field battle.


Sapura
 

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Originally posted by Doomdark:
Greven,

Thanks, but that magazine might be a bit difficult to obtain... Strange that this text did not have a wider impact considering that modern historians still tell of how the majority of the Saxons broke away and fled.

If you feel like it, could you mail me a quick summary of Lundkvist's account? :)

In the meantime I will attempt to find that text somehow.

/Doomie
Hehe.... 'Historisk Tidskrift' is the MOST wellknown and important magazine for professional historians in Sweden. And Sven Lundkvist is one of the top 10 20th century historians in Sweden. The article was written in 1963, yes, but the book you refer to all are based on sources created by the general staff in 1890's. Quite obsolete I say. I don't know what book you have read, but they ain't accurate that is for sure.
I have not the time to send you anything as I work. You can find it at any swedish library. :)

/Greven
 

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I don't know about the exact quantities of both armies. What were they?

I am uncertain as to the exact figures when the battle commenced (indeed, how certain can you ever be about such?), but Wallenstein is said to have had 50000 to GA's 18000 two months earlier when he decided to dig in across the Swedish supply lines instead of fighting. Assuming that these figures are 'spiced up' we would perhaps land at 40000 vs 25000. After the long stand-off both armies were probably decimated by several thousand men.
 

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Yes, no one can ever be sure of exact battle figures or casualties, I think we'll take that to our graves :)


25k vs 40k. It's a strong advantage, especially with adequate supplies and provisions.


Sapura
 

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Hehe.... 'Historisk Tidskrift' is the MOST wellknown and important magazine for professional historians in Sweden.

I know the magazine, but I am not a professional historian, which is why I always bow to your superior knowledge. :)

but the book you refer to all are based on sources created by the general staff in 1890's. Quite obsolete I say. I don't know what book you have read, but they ain't accurate that is for sure.

Well, as I am not a professional historian I usually rely on the literature that can be found in ordinary book stores. Except for Michael Roberts works the ones I like are all written in the 80's and 90's.

One favorite is Peter Englund's 'Ofredsår', another is 'Svenska Krig 1521-1814' by Ulf Sundberg. Then we have David Kirby's works on the history of the Baltic region.

You can find it at any swedish library.

I had hoped to avoid that... IMO libraries are obsolete.

/Doomie
 

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Doomie said:
Well, as I am not a professional historian I usually rely on the literature that can be found in ordinary book stores. Except for Michael Roberts works the ones I like are all written in the 80's and 90's.

Greven said:
This is one of the problems. Popularbooks often lack accurancy because its writers either lacks the historical knowledge or more common thinks his readers can't understand the more subtile analysis.
The year of writing isn't important, Doomie, you should check out what sources the writer use. As for Sundberg he mainly uses the works of the General Staff created in 1840's to 1890's and which is widely critisised. So Sven Lindkvist for example goes back to the original sources and checks their validity something that Sundberg never do. Michael Roberts theory of the development of tactics an organisation during GIIA has been doubted recently in an excellent work. I'll get the title for you later. It actually discusses why he thinks Roberts theory fails and where.

Doomie said:
One favorite is Peter Englund's 'Ofredsår', another is 'Svenska Krig 1521-1814' by Ulf Sundberg. Then we have David Kirby's works on the history of the Baltic region.

Greven said:
I personally don't like the works of Peter Englund that much. I miss the analysis of why he draws the conclusions he does. Just giving a reference at the back of a book is not enough. Sundberg is a nice overview but unfortenantly only a refreshed version of the original works of the General Staff so it must be interpreted carefully. Kirby though, him I like... :)

Doomie said:
I had hoped to avoid that... IMO libraries are obsolete.

Greven said:
Obsolete? (lol) :) Well perhaps but that is where 99.99% of all historical documentation is located. Everything else is just reduced commentaries... :) But you can actually order it over the net. Perhaps you'll have to go down and get it in person I don't know, but I do know... It will be worth the effort. :)

/Greven (sad that many writer underestimate their readers)
 

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Hmm, I am not prepared to start digging through 'low level' resources. Frankly, I am disappointed in the modern writers. While it is not my ambition to know everything about the period, I would at least like to have reliable sources.

Am I to understand then that there are no truly reliable and comprehensive actual books published that cover Swedish 17th century military history?
 

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Doomdark

By tactically inferior, I was referring to the fact that Wallenstein's army was using Spanish Square tactics for infantry, caracole reiter cavalry and civilian artillery contractors compared to the modern linear tactics of Gustavus' 6 man line infantry, cavalry charging at the gallop and professional gunners.

Alte Veste was an old hill fort which formed the basis of field fortifications added by Wallenstein. To call it a siege is a bit like calling Leuthen or Borodino as sieges because they also involved such field works. However, both I (and Wallenstein) acknowledge that the Imperial army couldn't beat Gustavus in a straight fight at the time. But a general wouldn't be very good if they chose to fight on enven terms if they could fight with an advantage.

As to numbers, Weigley's 'Age of Battles' quoted a combined Austrian/Bavarian/Catholic League force of 60,000 and a Swedish force of 30,000 after Oxensterna arrived with reinforcements in August 1632.

Finally I think some, including HW Koch, would take some issue with your assessment of Wallenstein's personality. Koch proclaims Albrecht as a proto-Bismarck. A more balanced view would be that he was a general who could get the job done, although with often questionable motives, and that is the ultimate test of a good general.

Turning to EU, and elaborating on Doomdark's disparagement of Wallenstein's command style compared to Gustavus, John Keegan in the Mask of Command observed that all commanders must choose his positon on the battlefield always at the front (like Alexander and Gustavus), sometimes at the front (like Wellesley and Wallenstein) or never (like Grant). Is this reflected in the game, that is, can a commander receive a bonus in morale but lose tactical input by pushing themselves forward (with the commensurate risk of death) or choose to hang back in order to maintain a more even spread of morale and tactical input over the entire battlefront at less physical risk?
 

Doomdark

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By tactically inferior, I was referring to the fact that Wallenstein's army was using Spanish Square tactics for infantry, caracole reiter cavalry and civilian artillery contractors compared to the modern linear tactics of Gustavus' 6 man line infantry, cavalry charging at the gallop and professional gunners.

Aha, sorry for the misunderstanding. One might say, however, that it was the general's responsibility to train, organize and deploy his troops in the fashion he deemed most efficient.

Alte Veste was an old hill fort which formed the basis of field fortifications added by Wallenstein. To call it a siege is a bit like calling Leuthen or Borodino as sieges because they also involved such field works.

Yes I know, but I never called it a siege. :)
The fact remains however, that Gustavus army had to storm heavy fortifications. To my knowledge, Wallenstein did not really field any tercios or try to sally forth in any significant counter-attacks.

IMO it is no great achievement to repulse an attack by an army half the size of your own, that is storming your heavy fortifications.

As for Wallenstein's personality, I suppose it can be debated. He was evidently incredibly ambitious and not widely liked. You called him a mercenary, which is probably pretty accurate, although I doubt he would have fought for anyone.

John Keegan in the Mask of Command observed that all commanders must choose his positon on the battlefield always at the front (like Alexander and Gustavus), sometimes at the front (like Wellesley and Wallenstein) or never (like Grant).

Now this is an interesting debate. Obviously a modern general could hardly lead from the front, and he would gain nothing by attempting to do so.

In days gone by this was not the case however, as officers had to motivate their men to fight. Communications and visibility between units were so bad anyway that the general might as well be at the front.

The motivational effect can not be overestimated. Imagine being a common soldier and seeing your King lead a charge against the enemy. Wouldn't your heart swell with pride and loyalty? Wouldn't you want to go through the fires of hell for such a man?

Aside from the effectiveness of leading from the front, there is also a strategic effect since such generals will enjoy a reputation as heroes.

However, a ruler has wider responsibilities than a mere general, so IMO he should not put his life at risk unless he knew that he had a worthy successor ready to assume the throne.

/Doomie
 

Doomdark

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Greven,

Regarding Breitenfeld, please take a look at this link and tell me what you think...
The Link

[This message has been edited by Doomdark (edited 30-08-2000).]
 

unmerged(28)

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Originally posted by Doomdark:
Greven,

Regarding Breitenfeld, please take a look at this link and tell me what you think...
The Link

[This message has been edited by Doomdark (edited 30-08-2000).]

Don't trust it... Look at its sources. I find some grave errors on the performance of the saxons.

'Am I to understand then that there are no truly reliable and comprehensive actual books published that cover Swedish 17th century military history?'

No there are many but you don't by them in your local bookstore. 'History' is a vogue in Sweden since the late 80's and 90's, but the quality is so low... Herman Lindqvist for example... :)

/Greven