Favors being important, and diplo rep being stronger.. I wonder

[rechetking]

Is there any plan to change espionage, diplomatic, and influence idea groups. Now that favors will have more value to them, and favor generation is increased by diplomatic rep is there going to be a balance pass on these idea groups. Ideally something to make espionage worth while?

 

[PyroMegaManZ]

To second this I feel that having a diplomat sitting around currying favours is going to end up being a lot more worthwhile as it stands currently than having them sitting around building up a spy network. The spy network in most instances only really gives you the benefit of some extra siege ability, whereas currying favours can either earn you money, manpower, returned cores or possible PUs (among other notable bonuses).

So now we have Diplo Rep being even more insanely powerful (both unlocked solely by Influence/Diplo ideas), and having your diplomats sitting around currying favours or improving relations with outraged nations seems far more useful than sitting around creating spy networks. My feeling is that passive spy networks need more perks, and support rebels needs to be more useful (and more espionage actions would be a cool too, but I am not holding out hope on too many new additions being made at once). I also believe that Espionage ideas should unlock an extra diplomat than it does already. These changes would hopefully allow for a more complicated choice between what to use your diplomats for.

 

[KRBLACK]

To second this I feel that having a diplomat sitting around currying favours is going to end up being a lot more worthwhile as it stands currently than having them sitting around building up a spy network. The spy network in most instances only really gives you the benefit of some extra siege ability, whereas currying favours can either earn you money, manpower, returned cores or possible PUs (among other notable bonuses).

So now we have Diplo Rep being even more insanely powerful (both unlocked solely by Influence/Diplo ideas), and having your diplomats sitting around currying favours or improving relations with outraged nations seems far more useful than sitting around creating spy networks. My feeling is that passive spy networks need more perks, and support rebels needs to be more useful (and more espionage actions would be a cool too, but I am not holding out hope on too many new additions being made at once). I also believe that Espionage ideas should unlock an extra diplomat than it does already. These changes would hopefully allow for a more complicated choice between what to use your diplomats for.

Espionage is not as bad as you'd think.

For just 1 idea group you can stack 30% AE reduction. 20% from idea itself and 10% from having 100% spy network.

Also, a little while ago I discovered the ''allows fabricating claims for subjects'' is much better than it looks. Not only does it keep the cost for claiming land at 15 spy network, instead of increasing every time. It also allows for fabricating claims bordering claims (but only for the subjects claims).

That said, influence and diplomatic are probably still better in most circumstances.

 

[PyroMegaManZ]

Espionage is not as bad as you'd think.

For just 1 idea group you can stack 30% AE reduction. 20% from idea itself and 10% from having 100% spy network.

Also, a little while ago I discovered the ''allows fabricating claims for subjects'' is much better than it looks. Not only does it keep the cost for claiming land at 15 spy network, instead of increasing every time. It also allows for fabricating claims bordering claims (but only for the subjects claims).

That said, influence and diplomatic are probably still better in most circumstances.

The 20% AE reduction from the idea group is really good, but the +25% improve relations from the Diplomatic idea group is roughly just as good if not better for reducing coalitions. The +10% from having 100% spy network only applies to that very specific nation you have the spy network with (and it is so rare to be able to hold onto 100% spy network in the first place) so it isn't too useful either.

The fabricating claims bordering your subjects can be very useful in specific instances, but if your gameplay revolves around having subjects then Influence usually wins out since you can just annex your subject for cheap (and annexing your subjects is usually the end goal) etc.

I am not sure what you mean by keeping spy network cost at 15 for claiming provinces with Espionage ideas. You do get -25% cost, but that doesn't stop it from increasing; instead of [20, 25, 30, 35, 40, ...] it goes [15, 18.75, 22.5, 26.25, 30, ...] which on top of the +50% spy network construction speed means you can claim bucketloads of provinces very quickly, but there are so few instances you need to claim (or can claim) more than two or three at a time.

The bonus of +50% support rebel efficiency is quite alright too, as it essentially guarantees an average of one uprising everytime you use the action, but then having an uprising does very little other than giving you the casus belli. I am a fan of Espionage ideas, but it is very situational, and is beaten out quite a bit by several other idea groups. This wouldn't be the case if having a powerful spy network and supporting rebels was useful though (in my opinion).

 

[Livigy]

Maybe there could be some interaction between spy network and favours?
Such as sharing your spy networks with allies for increased favour generation, or selling state secrets or assets to rivals of your spied on target or perhaps even blackmailing a target for favours as an interaction like slander merchants in the espionage options.

 

[Maxxie42]

Slightly off topic, but another good way to improve Espionnage would be to make covert actions unlock much earlier. At the moment many of them are unlocked so late that they're basically wasted, because for one many people stop playing before that, and for two, by the time you get them, you're so powerful that you just don't care about that kind of shenanagans anymore.

 

[FrogCrusher]

Speaking of covert actions, it could be also very good if there were a way to stop covert action against us. As all your rivalries targets you with spy network, you can't do counter spy on each of them. So the only solution today is to be powerful enough to not have a single rival. Other than that, you play all the late game with +2 unrest and -1 dip rep just because...

 

[Battlex]

Speaking of covert actions, it could be also very good if there were a way to stop covert action against us. As all your rivalries targets you with spy network, you can't do counter spy on each of them. So the only solution today is to be powerful enough to not have a single rival. Other than that, you play all the late game with +2 unrest and -1 dip rep just because...

How often do you have more than 3 rivals? Deciding which is best to target is part of strategy. You can always help that rival be conquered by allying on of their neighbouring rival

 

[KRBLACK]

The 20% AE reduction from the idea group is really good, but the +25% improve relations from the Diplomatic idea group is roughly just as good if not better for reducing coalitions.

No. I have to flat out disagree there.

When playing in Europe, or any region that is limited by AE, espionage is much better at preventing coalitions.

In isolation, 20% AER and 25% IR are equal. But these are never the only modifiers you have.

I try to stay at 100 prestige as much as possible by declaring humiliation wars and removing rivals from opponents. At 100 prestige, you have +50% IR. I also use the +15% merchant policy when cooling off AE.
For a grand total of 165% IR. Another 25% on top of that is only a 15% increase.

AER on the other hand, can we stacked to enormous amounts relatively easily. And it provides increasing returns.
-20% Espionage ideas
-10% Spy network
-10% prestige
-10% age ability
That is 50% AER and you have multiple other sources you can get more.
-10% national ideas
-10% careful ruler
-20% curia controller

I have played games where I couldn't wage wars quick enough to ''keep my AE ticking down''

The +10% from having 100% spy network only applies to that very specific nation you have the spy network with (and it is so rare to be able to hold onto 100% spy network in the first place) so it isn't too useful either.

When you have espionage ideas, staying at 100 spy network is very doable. The 50% extra network construction speed also reduces the chance your agent is discovered.

The fabricating claims bordering your subjects can be very useful in specific instances, but if your gameplay revolves around having subjects then Influence usually wins out since you can just annex your subject for cheap (and annexing your subjects is usually the end goal) etc.

I am not sure what you mean by keeping spy network cost at 15 for claiming provinces with Espionage ideas. You do get -25% cost, but that doesn't stop it from increasing; instead of [20, 25, 30, 35, 40, ...] it goes [15, 18.75, 22.5, 26.25, 30, ...] which on top of the +50% spy network construction speed means you can claim bucketloads of provinces very quickly, but there are so few instances you need to claim (or can claim) more than two or three at a time.

You misunderstand what I wrote.

Fabricating claims for subjects is pretty mediocre.
The thing is, it does more than what it says.

Let's say I am france and fabricate a claim for my vassal. The cost in spy network is 15. But the cost is only based on MY claims and not on my vassal's claims. So the claim price stays at 15 infinitely. This essentially allows you to remove diplomatic costs from peace treaties.

On top of that, it allows making claims bordering claims for your subjects claims. Even beyond the age of discovery.

 

[love sweden]

Dont worry Paradox will nerf Diplomatic and Influence to only give +1 dip rep and then nerf Religious again too.

 

[holyvigil]

Dont worry Paradox will nerf Diplomatic and Influence to only give +1 dip rep and then nerf Religious again too.

I think its pdox's goal to make all ideas as useful as naval currently is.

 

[PyroMegaManZ]

No. I have to flat out disagree there.

When playing in Europe, or any region that is limited by AE, espionage is much better at preventing coalitions.

In isolation, 20% AER and 25% IR are equal. But these are never the only modifiers you have.

I try to stay at 100 prestige as much as possible by declaring humiliation wars and removing rivals from opponents. At 100 prestige, you have +50% IR. I also use the +15% merchant policy when cooling off AE.
For a grand total of 165% IR. Another 25% on top of that is only a 15% increase.

I hadn't thought of when you had +100 prestige and the trade centre policy, though even if you have both (which is a big if for a majority of players, especially since disinheriting an heir can often be so useful) it only reduces the time it takes for your AE to cool down by about 8% overall if you take the -20% AE instead of the +25% IR. If you took Humanist Ideas already the -20% AE is much better, but otherwise while I will agree that the AE reduction is more useful in some instances it hardly makes for something splendidly amazing to sell the whole idea group.

When you have espionage ideas, staying at 100 spy network is very doable. The 50% extra network construction speed also reduces the chance your agent is discovered.

I did the calculations last year on it (I love taking Espionage ideas) and while I don't have them saved anymore what I do remember is that with just +50% spy network construction and no other modifiers you will typically sit on somewhere between 63 to 100 network with the nation you are targeting (unless they are your rival). You will also typically be on 100 for about four months on average before being discovered and heading back down to 63 again. This isn't too shabby at all, but it still only means an average of -8% AE reduction which only applies to that single nation you are targeting (which generally isn't too helpful in stopping coalitions).

You misunderstand what I wrote.

Fabricating claims for subjects is pretty mediocre.
The thing is, it does more than what it says.

Let's say I am france and fabricate a claim for my vassal. The cost in spy network is 15. But the cost is only based on MY claims and not on my vassal's claims. So the claim price stays at 15 infinitely. This essentially allows you to remove diplomatic costs from peace treaties.

On top of that, it allows making claims bordering claims for your subjects claims. Even beyond the age of discovery.

I had misunderstood what you wrote, and it does sound like a cool strategy, but it is also quite niche and if we are going for min-maxing on how many points we spend conquering provinces than Influence wins out, and Influence + Administrative absolutely crushes the playing field (sort of cheating since I am talking about two idea groups, but I mention it since there is nothing Espionage combines with that really compares currently).

Overall, Espionage is alright but struggles to compete against and finds its place among Diplo or Influence (or Trade or Exploration).

 

[FrogCrusher]

How often do you have more than 3 rivals? Deciding which is best to target is part of strategy. You can always help that rival be conquered by allying on of their neighbouring rival

It doesn't change the fact you can't avoid the covert action against you....

 

[KRBLACK]

I hadn't thought of when you had +100 prestige and the trade centre policy, though even if you have both (which is a big if for a majority of players, especially since disinheriting an heir can often be so useful) it only reduces the time it takes for your AE to cool down by about 8% overall if you take the -20% AE instead of the +25% IR. If you took Humanist Ideas already the -20% AE is much better, but otherwise while I will agree that the AE reduction is more useful in some instances it hardly makes for something splendidly amazing to sell the whole idea group.

1/0,8 = 1,25
Even in the worst case, the AE reduction in espionage is as good as diplomatic 25% IR.

1/0,7 = 1,43
Add 100% spy network to to mix for another 18% extra AE capacity

1/0,6 = 1,67
Add age ability, national ideas or religion for another 24% extra

1/0,55 = 1,82
Now add bonus from 50 prestige (which is very manageable even with monarchies).

1/0,35 = 2,86
When you get lucky with curia controller, you get so little AE it cools off before you have finished your next war (or whilst waiting out truces). Granted curia controller is rng dependent, but to me it happens once every run.

I did the calculations last year on it (I love taking Espionage ideas) and while I don't have them saved anymore what I do remember is that with just +50% spy network construction and no other modifiers you will typically sit on somewhere between 63 to 100 network with the nation you are targeting (unless they are your rival). You will also typically be on 100 for about four months on average before being discovered and heading back down to 63 again. This isn't too shabby at all, but it still only means an average of -8% AE reduction which only applies to that single nation you are targeting (which generally isn't too helpful in stopping coalitions).

In most wars, you take the majority of land from a single nation. That land will grant 10% less AE. It does not decrease AE-opinion of that nation, but reduces AE from all land taken from that nation.

Also, do note you can swap your merchant policy for another +25% spy network construction to temporarily boost your spies, until you can peace out at max network.

I had misunderstood what you wrote, and it does sound like a cool strategy, but it is also quite niche and if we are going for min-maxing on how many points we spend conquering provinces than Influence wins out, and Influence + Administrative absolutely crushes the playing field (sort of cheating since I am talking about two idea groups, but I mention it since there is nothing Espionage combines with that really compares currently).

Overall, Espionage is alright but struggles to compete against and finds its place among Diplo or Influence (or Trade or Exploration).

Influence decreases diplo points for peace treaties by 50%. If you use this trick, you will have claims on all land you wish to take and reduce the cost to 0. It takes more effort, but is twice as good.

You should try to play a game as a free city. You can conquer half of europe whilst still owning only 1 province yourself.
Recommended idea groups: Espionage, Influence, Economic.

Since you don't directly core provinces or annex vassals, you don't pay any MP. This allows you to develop lands instead, which will keep your vassals perpetually loyal.
In this scenario, AE is the only ''expansion tax'' you pay, so reducing it leads to rather comical situations.

 

[Vulkandrache]

How often do you have more than 3 rivals?

Regularly.
During the mid- to early lategame its not uncommon to have 5, 6 or even 7 nations rival you.
And since they seem to have nothing better to do they keep spynetwork on you all the time.
So as soon as they become available you'll have all the Spy debuffs on you until you outgrow every single one of them.
I cant afford to have my Diplomats (one of the most valuable and rare ressource in this game) do counter espionage.

 

[Battlex]

It doesn't change the fact you can't avoid the covert action against you....

And you shouldn't be able to, coalitions can still happen if you play it lucky with improving relations if you miss it here and there.

Regularly.
During the mid- to early lategame its not uncommon to have 5, 6 or even 7 nations rival you.
And since they seem to have nothing better to do they keep spynetwork on you all the time.
So as soon as they become available you'll have all the Spy debuffs on you until you outgrow every single one of them.
I cant afford to have my Diplomats (one of the most valuable and rare ressource in this game) do counter espionage.

What region are you playing in for this to be the case?

 

[Maxxie42]

In most wars, you take the majority of land from a single nation. That land will grant 10% less AE. It does not decrease AE-opinion of that nation, but reduces AE from all land taken from that nation.

I thought that too for the longest time, but it's incorrect. It only reduces the AE for the nation you have a spy network on. It was quite easy to test, I suggest you test it as well if you're still dubious.

 

[Vulkandrache]

What region are you playing in for this to be the case?

Persia, Eastern Europe, northern India, Egypt. Around there.
Its not hard getting Russian, Otto, Spain, France and Ming to rival you all at once.

The whole rival calculation is messed up anyways.
Having someone like Ming rival you when they have 6 times your forcelimit yet somehow you cant rival them beforehand.
But then some time later someone with 1/6 you forcelimit rival you while the game is telling you you are too big to have rivals.