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unmerged(51002)

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Nov 25, 2005
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Six level III CVs and 1 level IV CVs can easily butcher the Royal Navy, down to the last child. (Seriously - 13 BBs and 7 CVs can attest to that... did I mention they were all sunk in three days?) UNLESS the AI builds more ships with your modification. Does it?
 

unmerged(55467)

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Alexus said:
Six level III CVs and 1 level IV CVs can easily butcher the Royal Navy, down to the last child. (Seriously - 13 BBs and 7 CVs can attest to that... did I mention they were all sunk in three days?) UNLESS the AI builds more ships with your modification. Does it?
Hahahahha, yes, check the DD forum, for the thread, "Battle of the Century." That was us. XD
 

Brasidas

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Kanitatlan said:
Here is a sample (likely) strengths for various countries for autumn 1939

SU 1350 IC, 775 divisions
UK 480 IC, 214 divisions
Poland 190 IC, 131 divisions
France 279 IC, 232 divisions
USA 1020 IC, 63 divisions but not yet joined the allies
Canada 257 IC

Given this, and your concerns about the shape of a secondary Poland campaign, what shall the opening force deployments be like?

I understand your unwillingness to do things by halves, but there are some opportunities and risks out there that can require a division of forces. I would suggest an amalgam of some of the options I've suggested thus far.

A naval expeditionary force pre-deployed to its maximum effective range (3000km) on the route from Wilhelmshafen to Split. This fleet would include a naval superiority force capable of standing off the Italian navy and defending landing operations. The transport component of the fleet would include no less than three TPs, so as to allow opposed landings to succeed.

The first DoW would be upon Yugoslavia, and armour would exploit through Ljubljana to take Rijeka. A naval base in the queue would be deployed at Rijeka, allowing the fleet to rebase to the med without waiting for Split to be captured. Split and Podgorica would probably be more appropriate bases for the bulk of the fleet in the middle term, as they will have a higher base level.

When Yugo airbases have been captured, they should be used to support the fleet in combat against any forces in the adriatic. In the meantime, the airbase in Vienna and any new airbases deployed in the captured territory during the initial advance. A handful of naval bombers could go a long way.

Italy, of course, is the next target. Yugo will bring in other countries (saving the belligerance of the DoW's on these minors), but the whole idea here is to have a field force of transports early in the med and the ability to use them to capture the Italian colonies. As you said, minimal force should be deployed against the minor threat posed by these belligerant minors (eg Yugo beyond the desired initial advance, Hungary, Greece when the advance goes that far).

Likewise, the Siegfried line is defended with a minimal force. The size of this "minimal" force depends upon the strength of the enemy force. Absolute worst case? Saarbruecken faces 24 divs from Strassbourg in hills without a river barrier. Stuttgart faces a maximum of 48 divs in hills with a river barrier. What's the minimal force level, accounting for terrain and forts? 16 divs each? A conservative estimate's a good idea.

The rest of the armed forces, outside of such places as Kiel and the Danish border to capture Kolding in case of Baltic landings, would be deployed against Poland and Italy. Amphibious landings would allow for the capture of the african colonies and an accelerated capture of the southern part of the boot. I would suggest that it is indeed possible to deploy a sufficiently large force to fight both campaigns at once if needbe.

Italy would be the priority if needbe. Once the north is broken, the campaign is won. A flank attack through Foggia, Naples, or Taranto would cut down on the time, but once armour gets near the plains, the only chance they have is to get a good number of survivors to Sicily. If Sicily, Ethiopia, and Libya can be captured before the RN gets into the fight, Italy is annexed.

The most dangerous and potentially costly objective is Addis Addiba. Its well inland, and the dastardly navy can hit the German navy where you can't deploy a 15CV taskforce: its convoys. A single mountain division should be sent on an escorted TP to take Massaua immediately after the fleet reaches the first mediterranean base. By the time those mountaineers reach the VP province, the Italian mainland should be overrun.

A side note: it may not be possible to evacuate Ethiopia before the general war begins. Choices to consider after Italy is annexed include disbanding the mountain division - in which case the fleet task force should definitely be sent back to mediterranean ASAP after ensuring that the mountain div isn't cut off on its advance, supplying the division from Germany - at the cost of convoy losses, or immediately attempting to secure Suez from bases in Libya and Ethiopia.

The Polish force would receive its split of the forces to ensure that a Polish campaign can proceed effectively if and when the Allies DoW. There should be at least some respite before this major DoW, and an initial bias of the Luftwaffe towards Italy would seem appropriate.



All fronts are covered, risks are minimized, and Italy can be taken in the cheapest manner possible. The map begins to look like a fall '39 variant of A&A.

Soviet manpower should be getting on for 5 per day

With my dififculty settings any AI factory builds turn into explosive industrial growth. Each factory the Soviets build will be worth something like 3.15 IC. This soon turns into rather a dramatic growth .....

Well then, it'll just have to get taken down early. Sealion in fall '39?
 
Last edited:

dannyboy2016

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The Führer surprises me with his genius! Luring English expeditionary forces to their doom in Normandy and Brittany would be a very good trick! I still think it is in our best interests to secure Cherborg as soon as possible once hostilities break out. The air facilities there will greatly improve our Luftwaffe's range and our ability to harass the enemy. Additionally, air forces in Cherborg may convince the British to rush forces to Normandy in an attempt to stop our attacks on their shipping and industries. Cherborg itself does not have a coastline suitable for landing large forces, so it could easily be used as bait.

What is our Führer's position with regards to the “neutrality” of Holland and Denmark?
 

Brasidas

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Kanitatlan said:
Medi I have modded the Memel event to include an inherit Slovakia clause so as to remove this issue. The current "end of czechoslovakia" events provide a choice of a puppet Slovakia or an alliance with Hungary neither of which is acceptable.

So what does the "end of czechoslovakia" event look like? A similar belligerance spike to the "free Slovakia" variant? Was the event simply rolled into the Memel event?

An alternative mod might have been to simply remove the alliance with Hungary by making that line a comment (adding a pound sign in front).

Eg.
...
# command = { type = alliance which = HUN }

Hungary grabbing Slovakia while you grab Bohemia doesn't mean you have to be particularly friendly. MR pact parallels come to mind.
 

Kanitatlan

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Brasidas I will be adhering to one of the central tenets of strategy. I will go forth and engage the main body of my enemy and defeat it. This pretty much means that I must aim to defeat France and England when war breaks out and all other objectives are only relevant as part of a direct path to achieving this. In the longer term the main enemy is the Soviet Union and hence following operations are focused purely on defeating them. Ultimately the enemy will be the USA .

Italy is no direct threat to me, relatively harmless even if they DOW me and of no real relevance for defeating the UK. This means I will be ignoring them for some time. There are attractions to attacking them early as nobody will protect them but my experience suggests i have very little belligerence lee way before I trigger a general war. I suspect the only way I would get away with fighting Italy would be if I fought nobody else.

My attitude to the mediterranean is likely to be focused around a pure land strategy - Gibraltar through Spain and the middle east through Turkey. This largely makes fighting in the Mediterranean irrelevant to the long-term strategy so no early Italy.

danielshannon In this war no country is neutral. My general stance for countries across europe is as follows.

1. Denmark is a prime target for achieving guaranteed security for the Baltic and hence a very early target.

2. Holland and belgium provide vital manoeuvring space for the western campaign so both most fall.

3. Hungary and Yugoslavia must go as vital extensions for access to other countries.

4. Greece makes and excellent mediterranean base but is otherwise not important.

5. Italy is harmless and if anything a distraction for my enemies so it will intiially be left alone.

6. Norway and Sweden will be treated as one as Sweden gives 'land' access to Scandinavia. Their conquest is not urgent as my plans involve a more direct access to the UK and hence no long-term European naval war. In fact invading Scandinavia will be about metal shortages and nothing else.

7. Spain is a key location for naval warfare against the UK and gives access to gibraltar to close the mediterranean.
 

Kanitatlan

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I have given some further thought to the idea of attacking France via Switzerland. It does have one factor in its favour which is that the French AI has no inclination to garrison the Swiss border. Unfortunately this is the only plus point.

Access via Switzerland into France is via Besancon only and is relatively poor and easily defended. Also, and this is the clincher, Switzerland is guaranteed by all and sundry and hence could easily precipitate a general war involving the USA and SU. This would be somewhat unfortunate (to say the least)
 

Kanitatlan

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The Plan
Here is the initial plan.

I will reoccupy the Rhineland immediately on start of the game and pursue immediately into Luxembourg. This will be my first conquest and since it is a core province and will be held from near the start it will actually make a significant contribution to the pre-war build total. There will be no other military operations prior to a resumption after the Memel event. Policy will be to go to war in early 1939 with a plan as yet to be determined.

Trading policy will be based upon achieving profitable exchanges whilst building up a large rare material and oil reserve. There is no need for an energy reserve but a metal reserve will be sensible. I will be attempting to trade for a daily surplus of around $10 to finance intelligence activities. I will be trying to minimise supply expenditure so as to maximise effective industrial output.

Intelligence policy will focus on building up spying defences and eliminating enemy spies. Surplus funds will be directed at building up a 10 spy penetration in the USA. Once achieved I will be focusing on stealing blue-prints from them. If there appears to be more funding available then I will send spies to the UK. I do not want to upset Italy, Soviet Union or Japan whilst they are good trading partners.

Research will initially focus on industrial, agriculture, computers and naval. I need to achieve CV IV as quickly as possible and then start building so I have a good navy by 1939. I will then be focusing on achieving Basic models of everything in time to upgrade before war. Improved models are required in time to upgrade during 1939. At some point I will dump the current naval doctrine sequence and transfer to Base Strike hoping to achieve significant penetration prior to the outbreak of general war in 1939. Blitzkrieg land doctrine is needed reasonably early to get the final Lt Armour cost reduction prior to starting their builds.

Industrial policy is for 3 rounds of factory builds followed by the construction and upgrade of the following forces

28 Armour
24 Motorised
30 SPArt
3 Para
3 Air Transport
12 CVs
12 CAG
100 Infantry
140 artillery
24 Interceptor
24 CAS
12 TAC
20 Escort Fighter
10 CL
12 Transport

This force will not be fully ready by 1st April but will be nearly complete. It should leave me with around 400 unused manpower. Not that these are in addition to pre-existing units and those inherited from Austria. Unfortunately it is impossible to include marines and mountain divisions within these timescales so they will have to be built after.

The artillery brigades will be a model that has had its movement penalty removed and has some significant org bonuses to make sure they are an effective use of manpower.

Given the upgrade rules and previous analysis (as well as some unstated) the upgradeable units are all best built as the earliest model possible except for the infantry divisions, paratroops and air transports. For infantry divisions good gearing can easily be better than avoiding the upgrade costs.
 

blue emu

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A somewhat gamey but potentially useful idea would be to ally with Austria early, stuff them full of well-chosen blueprints, and then boot them again shortly before the Anschluss event is due.

With the proper blueprints, this would ensure that most of the units they construct are reasonably modern, requiring minimal upgrading after Anschluss. It would also help them to increase their Manpower and Industry... again maximizing their unit builds.

On harder difficulty levels, AI-countries can assemble surprisingly large forces... why not take maximum advantage of that?
 

Brasidas

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Pardon my math, but assuming that all eligible divisions are brigaded with arty, you will have 13 brigades surplus to needs and therefore wasting your TC to no combat benefit.

Math:
100 infantry divs + 24 motorized divs + 3 paratrooper divs = 127 divs
140 artillery brigades > # of divisions to which they may be attached

The motorized divisions would presumably be taking the SP-ART that are excess to the needs of the armour, so the brigade surplus would be even more.

Wouldn't another half dozen infantry divisions be more useful in the shorter term?

I can respect a brigaded plan, but may I ask why the large manpower reserve? Is this for a switch to a heavy mechanized division deployment as the tech for it becomes available? A 40% boost in the mainstay infantry force would be rather significant, though it could be an unnecessary mobilization so early in the war.

In terms of coupling objectives, establishing espionage capabilities within the USA and UK opens up a great opportunity for tech rushing CV and naval doctrine research. With a handful of trades for cash, it should be possible for the Abwehr to help the navy make headway - quick enough to ensure early CV research remains on a BP'd rate.

I acknowledge my making comments involving the Abwehr, but my suggestions here are limited to the support of the operations of other departments.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(24320)

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Brasidas: Pardon my math..Math:
100 infantry divs + 24 motorized divs + 3 paratrooper divs = 127 divs
140 artillery brigades > # of divisions to which they may be attached

The motorized divisions would presumably be taking the SP-ART that are excess to the needs of the armour, so the brigade surplus would be even more. /Brasidas

you forget that the original inf div and the Austrian divisions will need to be brigaded. ;)
 

unmerged(41995)

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Went and read Hynkel's new world order from your sig.
*again tips hat in Kantitlan's general direction*
I feel that the differences between HoI 1 & 2 make such a strategy for England and France untenable which is a pity - because I like your comments about strategy.
IIRC your point out that Germany needs to act quickly and decisively with its enemies; that Hitler's plan was to make greater Germany a fortress. Static defences verses fluid attack. I hadn't given that much thought but it certainly makes sense of some very odd decisions by A.H..
Britain's initial defences while very poor, I think would still probably hold any invasion force up long enough for a combined naval and air counterattack.
But I am still convinced that France is a bigger threat than Poland. If Poland can be taken out very quickly, with a quick redeployment to the West then OK... maybe.
With the bonuses the AI gets in MP and Tech, France will certainly be teched up while Poland wont be.
*shrugs shoulders*
Could you comment some more on your thoughts about a German aggressive mobile strategy verses a more sedate cautious strategy?
 

unmerged(51702)

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MEMORANDUM OF INSPEKTOR-GENERAL DER PANZERTRUPPEN Note: circles prsent pockets

Now here is my suggestion and some thoughts.

We must concentrate our armour, that is to attack sector A.
Infantry must reach reims for this pocket to be full. A lot of support attacks.

About Switzerland; They have two VP provinces after those taken we can annex them. Attack there must be mounted by paradrops (preferdably with artillery) because of the forts. After a bridgehead we can
A Mount a full scale offensive to the southern France cousing havoc in the enemy's rear.
B Take defensive positions in the marked provinces. They will be realtively easy to defend, and will cause french concentrating their divisions to the area thus creating a diversion for our offensive through Belgium.
 

Kanitatlan

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Brasidas Ghostwriter As Ghostwriter correctly points out the excess brigades are for the pre-existing divisions and will in fact be slightly fewer than required.

Intelligence policy is based on buying in money to finance it but without undue industrial impact (i.e. minimum trading of supplies). My selected targets are USA and then UK.

therev I believe the Hynkel strategy is not viable due to the likely defence levels in sprint 1939. It might work in 1936 but by 1939 I would need to land a very significant force. This would then have to be the main aim of the prewar plan which is a questionable setting of priorites. I believe a dependence on a slightly slower process depending more on air-power will be safer and more secure. I remain very tempted by the plan's inherent audacious nature.

Despite France being a more significant threat than Poland it remains necessary to "deal" with Poland first. This is because they would otherwise tie down very significant forces defending against them and because they can be defeated extremely quickly allowing a maximum deployment against France. because of this the defeat of Poland becomes and integral part of the plan to engage and destroy the main strength of the enemy in France.

The key to German strategy is to exploit their advantage. The primary advantage is holding the initiative, German build up is targetted to a known war date because we control it. germany has a number of advantages - better slider positions, early doctrine etc. These advantages decay with time. It is necessary to exploit the advantage as effeciently as possible to achieve victory before the enemies vastly superior numbers are brought to bear. Hitler's view was to create a defensive perimeter that could resist these superior numbers - WWI thinking. Mine is based on defeating sufficient enemies soon enough to leave us with sufficient advantage to defeat what remains.

Consider the position we would be in if we had to engage France, UK, USA, USSR all at once with them all having 2 years to prepare. This would be an extremely difificult position to deal with. The proper solution is to defeat them in turn before any of the others can intervene effectively.

Aldous Switzerland will be far too heavily defended to take by paradrop. There is no practical way of achieving a rapid breakthrough and therefore my previous comments stand. The critical issue is the possibility of US and SU intervention. Switzerland will need to be avoided for the forseeable future.

The France campaign plan remains very much up in the air. I am concerned about the force densities that will be encountered and the potential need for a more dynamic plan. If force densities are sufficiently high than I will have to resort to a mobile defence and counter-stroke plan. Decisions will have to wait till closer to the time.
 

Kanitatlan

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Having given the build plan some thought I have decided to revamp the whole process. I have just over 100,000 IC days funding for the plan leading up to 1st April 1939. In the following period to a Barbarossa attack in 1940 there is another 100,000 IC days available. For efficient use of these following ICs I need a plan that continues without a break rather than the current diconnected plan. The current plan is more or less build and then upgrade. Some unit types will want continuing serial builds and hence there will be issues of reducing the build expenditure to do the upgrades. This will need more examination.

Also I forgot the HQs. I haven't decided how many I will need. There are two 'free' HQs. I am thinking another 2 for 1939 and another 3 for Barbarossa.
 

Kanitatlan

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blue emu I am not going to ally with Austria as this would be a breach of my "no allies" policy. The gain would be quite limited as the only units that are more economical if upgraded are infantry and mountain divisions. I would have difficulty getting them to research a better tech for these in time and they would then waste a lot of resources on expensively upgrading what they already have whereas I can upgrade them cheaply. Also, I want them to build as much manpower into units as possible as this is free manpower. In fact with our set up I suspect your strategy might be slightly counter-productive.
 

blue emu

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I agree with the need to defeat... or at least cripple... Poland first. One of our principle advantages is our central position, which allows us to throw our main weight against one isolated opponent at a time, knocking them out of the war one after another... a truly Napoleonic strategy. If we fail to act decisively, however, that advantage of a central position will quickly become a disadvantage, as we would end up surrounded by powerful enemies, and fighting in a dispersed manner on multiple fronts.

As far as the campaign in France goes... I favor a truncated version of the Schlieffen Plan, rather than a version of the Manstein Plan.

The decisive breakthrough should be made as far North as possible, with the main thrust-line following Antwerp => Ghent => Lille => Amiens => Paris. This allows us to strike as quickly as possible, by sticking to the open plains and avoiding all rivers except the Seine. It also maximizes our combat advantages (Armor and Air-support vs enemy units deployed in open country) by avoiding Forests and Hills... and it shields one flank by using the sea as an anchor for our right flank.

The offensive can then spread southward and westward, until we take enough territory to force the French to the bargaining table.
 

Brasidas

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Reviewing Aldous' map, what are your thoughts on a strategy built around a penetration in sector B?



There are two mobile army group equivalents of 24 or more divisions, which could be supported by a third 24-div group of leg infantry. With three field marshalls, a 72-div group backed by heavy air support could hit Rheims and exploit through.

Once this breakthrough is made, its a matter of outpacing and sniping the AI's blocking forces as it attempts to guard Paris and Vichy. A blitz through Troyes and Auxerre would seem to outflank any defense of the capital, while slower moving units could support the assault and cover supply from Troyes.

Paradrops might be particularly useful for speeding the capture of the deeper objectives (Troyes, Auxerre, Paris) before reinforcements can arrive to defend them, beyond any garrisons that exist there before the armoured spearhead begins moving to that particular province.
 
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unmerged(24857)

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I find your lack of mountaineers... disturbing.
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