Fascist Britain
- Thread starter Broletariat90
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What I don't understand is, why people keep coming with such posts in many threads. HOI 4 still is a game, not a warcrime simulator...jeez
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I'm not complaining just pointing out that the forum has rules which when broken get threads closed, chill your boots.
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Hey Aries!
You misunderstood me or maybe i was formulating it a bit wrong. Actually i was siding with you on that matter. I just didn't quote the other guy, because i didn't want a perpetuation of breaking the forum rules. It happens very often, that people discuss a topic and then one guy shows and spoils the thread with warcrime stuff. And because of that, threads are closed over and over again and no one seems to learn from that.So sorry, if you thought, that i was picking on you!
Cheers!
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How is this a statement about an in game feature? Oh it isn't.
Last warning.
To everyone else, do not reply to his statement, as the flame stops here
I wonder if Fascist Britain would get along with Germany. Besides, well, ethnic similarities, wouldn't the two become heavily competitive with each other? I could see the two having a tedious relationship like Germany and Italy did, though it would be different because Britain could challenge Germany.
If intra-faction tensions were to be a thing, especially late game, I could see Britain and Germany fighting each other over imperial rights.
I could also see Axis Britain resulting in a more aggressive USSR, USA leaning towards isolationism (or intervention if they become pro-Soviet), Japan refusing to join the Axis, and the empire becoming pissed (Britain should lose the empire if they go fascist, or communist too, but have free restoration of order casus bellis).
If intra-faction tensions were to be a thing, especially late game, I could see Britain and Germany fighting each other over imperial rights.
I could also see Axis Britain resulting in a more aggressive USSR, USA leaning towards isolationism (or intervention if they become pro-Soviet), Japan refusing to join the Axis, and the empire becoming pissed (Britain should lose the empire if they go fascist, or communist too, but have free restoration of order casus bellis).
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Is no discussion of war crimes or desire to make it about those issues, just if there had been a communist rebellion or something extreme enough to make a fascist UK, who would the leader be? Someone from the establishment and someone who's views lined up with that sort of regime.
It's not any of the historical fascists, they both lack the credibility and ability, or aren't right wing enough for a universe where fascists would win an election, or are too crazy to win in any universe. So it'd be someone from the old establishment, right? Churchill makes the as much sense as anyone to fill that role, he'd come to power for the same reasons he did in history, entrenched in the establishment and being perceived as a strong man in a time of crisis.
If there was a civil war, coup or counter revolution, J.F.C. Fuller could have lead it and now be the 'saviour of Britain' dictator role, He'd probably be the most interesting alternative?
Mosley, wouldn't really work for a war game, he was all about utopian daydreams and social reform, desperately wanted to do anything to avoid a war, if he was in charge when war broke out, the first thing he'd do is surrender as he didn't want british lives sacrificed in a war britain would lose, and he believed that britain would lose. So he'd be replaced by someone like Fuller as soon as the war started, so might as well have Fuller, Churchill or someone in charge from the get go?
Mosley would be the Chamberlain of Fascist Britain, not the Churchill.
But there's still an issue where, even fascist, they still wouldn't be allied with germany if that was all that had changed. None of the causes of the war for Britain had to do with ideology. the establishment and public would still be anti-german, WW1 still would have happened, the UK would still want the status quo as it was the superpower already.
Maybe if you had a Communist France? escalate the butterflies, an uprising in the UK setting off a revolution in France too? so you could have a western front in an Axis/Allies v Com. war and higher stakes so everyone would be involved? Then you'd still get a western front.
Or the counter-revolution in the UK only being won with German aid/intervention to make the UK pro-german? or even already kind of a puppet government? In which case anyone could lead it. Then they could start off Axis? But if they were already a puppet, would the commonwealth work with them or already be a government in exile against them? If Britain had lost the Empire already, it'd fit into the Axis more, as wanting war to get it back? Maybe Great Britain is fascist/nazi, and the British Empire is in the Allies and holds all the colonies and is allied with the commonwealth against them? Or the colonies are split 50/50 between Axis Britain and the Allied UK (based in India?) in exile?
But if there was a civil war, and someone like Fuller, was in charge, public sentiment might not be anti-german anyway, if communists were more scary, the establishment and public might actually support the axis and so allow a government to be that way? And allow any historical figure to be also?
Probably easier to just go all fantasy, and invent new politicians or just the current ones and ignore who they were historically to fit the scenario (and give them better traits?). Just say the UK and commonwealth in this universe are axis and dictatorships 'just cos' and leave it as that?
Maybe give France some buffs or a larger fleet or something to keep things going? As if it's just about an interesting scenario, you'd want France stronger, or make Spain, Italy or someone Allied to counter them? Or have more neutrals start off as allied?
But if it's a alt-history, I feel Fuller as the hero of the counter-revolution, or someone from the old conservative establishment rather than an actual fascist, would make the best leader. Mosleys fascist britain, would still be democratic, allied, and essentially unchanged in everything the game represents, as anything major enough to have change that, would have also removed Mosley from power, so his wouldn't be interesting enough to make a scenario about.
Like what imperial rights?
Hitler wanted to ally England and let her rule the seas and what ever empire she already had, while Germany would dominate Central and Eastern Europe.
Germany would have more than enough digesting in Central and Eastern Europe, and Hitler personally did not care much for even the pre-Versailles German colonies.
England too would have its hands full in maintaining what she already has, especially if she doesn't let go of India.
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But, would they want a powerful germany sitting in europe, as a constant thread to british security and independence?
Britain already has a global empire and first place at the table what do they get out of a giant germany in europe overshadowing them?
And why wouldn't Germany do what the US did and apply pressure on the UK to lose the empire so it's not big enough to ever be a threat to them?
It's about place in the world more than lines on the map, sure their claims don't overlap, but they both want to be the world superpower. Britain doesn't want Germany telling it what to do, Germany telling it to stay the same and chill with it's empire, is still germany usurping britains place as global leader and telling it what to do, and Germany isn't Britains real dad so there'd be tensions there.
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Yes, I thought of this. I was however assuming the scenario we were talking about was one where a BUF-led England aligns itself with Germany, thus avoiding hostilities between the two.
If a Fascist England instead adopts a somewhat hostile policy towards Germany, similar to that of Fascist Italy in the early 1930s, then I can see her going to war with Germany at some point in fear of the latter becoming too powerful.
Because Hitler wanted to preserve the British Empire, viewing England as a Germanic "sister nation", if you will.
Yeah iT was the original plan to Peace out britain fast than gang up on the Soviet Union together. One off the high ranking nazi officials (cant remember his name) even flew in a plane to London in a looney attempt to save this plan. He was captured and locked up as the British where unwilling to yield.
Also iTS a knows fact that in allied countries there where Some Well knows Nazi sympathisers. So if germany would have attacked Russia during the winter who knows how Many fascist revolutions iT could have supported..
Still though, when victory is in the horizon for greedy fascists, they would start to compete amongst themselves for power since their enemies are no longer big threats. It's like how the USSR and China ended up rivaling each other in the 70s (though for other circumstances) and like how the Germans were on guard for any hostilities from or against Japan, as the Germans for saw conflict with the "easterners".
Gameplay wise it would be interesting lategame, since the losers might have a fast chance for revenge if the two big boys of the block got at each other's necks
Gameplay wise it would be interesting lategame, since the losers might have a fast chance for revenge if the two big boys of the block got at each other's necks
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Well I would see the following happening:
- England goes fascist early '37.
- Germany and England influence France, it turns fascist and enters the Axis.
- The new Axis is England, Germany and France, Italy moves to start its own faction with some of the balkan states.
- Germany forces austria, czech and poland to fold, eventually bordering the USSR. Germany builds up infrastructure in Poland.
- Benlux states are divided between all 3. France taking french speaking areas, Luxemburg to Germany and the remainder to the UK
- Spain is either invaded or forced into the axis. Portugal is the same after handing over its colonies to the UK and France.
- 1940 French and German troops invade Italy and the Balkans, France maintains the majority of Northern Italy and a puppet Kingdom of Naples. Uk gets North Africa and Ethopia, Germany gets Tyrol and Hungary. The other states either swap to join the Axis or form a large Balkan puppet.
- 1941 combined Axis forces invade Russia, the US begins lend lease. German troops invade across the border, Brits land in the North and the French land in Crimea after forcing transit rights with Turkey.
- Russia falls, Siberia becomes a British puppet. Germany gains its living space. France obtains Crimea.
- Queue Axis recolonisation of Asia. America gears up for war. Commonwealth nations begin to waver in support for the empire.
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I'd propose these timelines
Scenario
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Twice as many britians to play as
- Great Britain is an Axis Dictatorship, run by Fuller, and prominent military, far-right conservative and fascist ministers, all veterans of the civil war. Controls all British territory in Europe and a few military bases around the world.
-British Empire is an Allied Democracy, run by moderate conservatives or maybe the Liberals? under King Edward (who never met Wallace), with it's capitol in India. The commonwealth is allied to the British Empire, though some nations within it might be on the verge of fascist or communist's gaining control as the world, especially the Anglosphere, is more unstable.
-There exists an uneasy peace between them, Great Britain still reconstructing after the civil war and the Empire can't act against GB for fear of Germany involvement and isn't sure of Commonwealth support.
Once WW2 breaks out each gets a civil war/annex all CB on the other. If GB wins, Edward becomes it's Head of State, but as a puppet of Fuller/whoever is Prime Minister (the dictator). GB also gets a CB on all Commonwealth nations?
OR
- 1926 - General Strike escalates into Communist Uprising following unprovoked attack on civilians by the military and the OMS, though the rebellion is swiftly put down, tensions continue to rise.
- 1930 - Socialist Republic of Great Britain, Communist Revolution in Britain, Government ministers and royals flee as London falls to the second uprising, those that remain in residence, including George V are executed or imprisoned (and presumed executed) to make reconciliation or peace impossible.
- 1930-1936? British Civil War, J.F.C. Fuller rallies the remnants of the british army in the name of King Edward to restore order to Britain and crush the rebels, while the King and government in exile prioritise diplomacy, attempting to gain French or American intervention and consolidating their control over the Empire rather than fighting in Britain.
- Fuller frustrated with the governments lack of willingness to fight and slow response, seeks aid from Germany and right wing elements at home and abroad, starts making steady progress against the Communists. Declares himself head of the provisional government of Great Britain, organises military government 'in the name of the King.'
- 12th August 1936, seeing themselves as abandoned and betrayed by the British government, hiding itself away in India while british blood and british courage battled to save Britain from the forces of anarchy and communism, Fuller's government rejects the authority of the British Government in exile, naming them cowards, traitors, puppets of international finance and criminals holding the king hostage.
- British Empire (GiE) forces stationed in Gibraltar, defect to Great Britain (Fuller) after being ordered to prepare for an invasion of Britain to oust the provisional government. In Response to this news, Fuller signs pact with Germany and Italy to stand united against revolutionary elements and the agents of international finance.
Scenario
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Twice as many britians to play as
- Great Britain is an Axis Dictatorship, run by Fuller, and prominent military, far-right conservative and fascist ministers, all veterans of the civil war. Controls all British territory in Europe and a few military bases around the world.
-British Empire is an Allied Democracy, run by moderate conservatives or maybe the Liberals? under King Edward (who never met Wallace), with it's capitol in India. The commonwealth is allied to the British Empire, though some nations within it might be on the verge of fascist or communist's gaining control as the world, especially the Anglosphere, is more unstable.
-There exists an uneasy peace between them, Great Britain still reconstructing after the civil war and the Empire can't act against GB for fear of Germany involvement and isn't sure of Commonwealth support.
Once WW2 breaks out each gets a civil war/annex all CB on the other. If GB wins, Edward becomes it's Head of State, but as a puppet of Fuller/whoever is Prime Minister (the dictator). GB also gets a CB on all Commonwealth nations?
OR
1935 - Mosley Elected
1935-1938 - Mosley's idealistic social and economic reforms boost his popularity, lowered pensions, millions spent on agricultural reform and tearing down the slums to build state tenements in their place, unemployment eliminated through mass employment programmes, strain the nations finances past breaking point and lose him the support of the political classes. Revolutionary restructuring of economic system fails to gain support in parliament to even be attempted leading to loss of faith in the party.
As war looms in europe, Mosley and his government attempt every gesture of friendship and appeasement to hitler, mussolini and even to the communists possible believing that Britain is ill placed to win a modern war and unwilling to see british lives lost on the scale of the first world war again, this pacifism however only leads to bolder and bolder actions from the warmongers of europe.
1938 - Germany Invades Poland! despite British willingness to allow the annexation of Danzig, the crisis esclates into World War!
Following a vote of no confidence in Mosleys leadership, he and his cronies are removed from power as UK and France go to war against the German Reich.
War opens with the player choosing between Fuller, Churchill or Lord Halifax for PM
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scenario
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World map and alliances as vanilla, the difference being France not the UK is now the head of the Allies, and the UK is bankrupt and with an army half the size, maybe India has home rule provides less troops and resources as well?.
1935-1938 - Mosley's idealistic social and economic reforms boost his popularity, lowered pensions, millions spent on agricultural reform and tearing down the slums to build state tenements in their place, unemployment eliminated through mass employment programmes, strain the nations finances past breaking point and lose him the support of the political classes. Revolutionary restructuring of economic system fails to gain support in parliament to even be attempted leading to loss of faith in the party.
As war looms in europe, Mosley and his government attempt every gesture of friendship and appeasement to hitler, mussolini and even to the communists possible believing that Britain is ill placed to win a modern war and unwilling to see british lives lost on the scale of the first world war again, this pacifism however only leads to bolder and bolder actions from the warmongers of europe.
1938 - Germany Invades Poland! despite British willingness to allow the annexation of Danzig, the crisis esclates into World War!
Following a vote of no confidence in Mosleys leadership, he and his cronies are removed from power as UK and France go to war against the German Reich.
War opens with the player choosing between Fuller, Churchill or Lord Halifax for PM
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scenario
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World map and alliances as vanilla, the difference being France not the UK is now the head of the Allies, and the UK is bankrupt and with an army half the size, maybe India has home rule provides less troops and resources as well?.
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i just wanna see if i can finish the 100 years war with the french finally accepting British crown rule