Far East

[Steph]

Originally posted by Demetrios
Cannon saw their first use in Western Europe at the Battle of Crecy between the French and English in 1347 (the English had the cannon there, by the way, having seen the Muslims using them in Spain a few years before)

No, it was used before by French forces besieging the fortress of La Reole, in Aquitaine. The French were lead by Charles de Valois, uncle of the king (Charles X the Hutin if I remember well). I don't remember the exact date, but it was before the 100 years war

 

[Aetius]

Originally posted by proudirishmick
I know Paradox didnt make the IGC but I wasnt complaining about IGC.I was really complaining that Japan and China aren't strong enough in the real EU(without IGC).

Well the Japanese were busy killing each other from (latest) 1467-1615 in a civil war. Whether this makes them strong or weak I can't say. I'd suspect weak.

 

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Re: Huh?

Originally posted by Admiral Howe


That would have made it difficult for there to be Turkish cannon at the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 (I think that's the date).

it is the date of it's fall, you're right

 

[Vulture]

Whoever asked it... The Thailand nation is called Ayutthaya in the IGC

 

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INVENTIONS AS A RESULT OF WAR: (Mostly with the Mongolians)
In the T'ang dynasty, gun powder was invented, which actually was by accident. They were attempting to make the elixir of life, which was supposed to make you immortal, and was primarily for emperors,the T'ang dynasty(618-907.), fireworks were invented. These were originally for shows, but later on they used them to scare of enemies in war. The fireworks were mainly small bamboo cases filled with gunpowder, and a fuse was put on the side.

The Chinese were the first to discover iron casting around the sixth century, when they mixed tin and copper together. So they have the first iron cannon.

earlist pictures of european art(1327) are very similar to chinese 1128 sculptures, 1333 art is used in the UK to subdue berwick, but only against soft targets, it not being able to batter the walls down. This would be the case till 1430 in the hundred years war, when breaches in walls are mentioned, that make the towns undefensabble.

Harfleur held for 6 weeks in 1415, 6 months in 1440, fell in 17 days to Charles Vii in 1449 when he turned up with 16 bombards, he goes on to take 70 such places in in 4 months.

If anyone is really intrested in finding out more, Cambridge history of Warefare goes into considerable detail.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...08953/sr=1-1/ref=sr_sp_re/026-4103304-9632407

hannibal

 

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Originally posted by Hannibal Barca

The Chinese were the first to discover iron casting around the sixth century, when they mixed tin and copper together. So they have the first iron cannon.

l [/B]

Tin and copper don't make iron - they make bronze.

 

[Mohe]

What I think was trying to be said was that the chinese were the first to develop cast iron, which they did at the beginning of the first millenium b.c.e. This allowed the mass production of Iron implements (and weapons) which enabled the fielding of truly huge armies and allowed the agricultural expansio to feed them as well.

All this long before our time period

 

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I was paraphrasing the info found in this site: for parts of the post.

http://www.crystalinks.com/chinainventions.html

Since then ive seen this as well.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/china/age.html

and here http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=13839

so slory, for conflusion

Hannibal

 

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Originally posted by Hannibal Barca
I was paraphrasing the info found in this site: for parts of the post.

so slory, for conflusion

Hannibal

No problem. Not trying to DoW you, just being picky.

 

[Aetius]

I think this discussion is quite beside the point. Even if the Chinese could have developed cannons more advanced than the equivalent than those available in Europe and the Levant they clearly didn't. Gunpowder alone doesn't make cannons neither does bronze casting. Knowing about them obviously helps, but there are other factors to consider, necessity being one of them.
I would hesitate to argue any primacy of invention. If the Romans discovered reinforced concrete and clockwork, inventions that subsequently were forgotten, who knows what else they might have had? When was/is "our" time period btw?

 

[Cakravarti]

Originally posted by proudirishmick
Do you speak Chinese Mandarin?I know Malaysian would be your native tongue but alot of Malaysians do speak Mandarin

Actually there is no language called Malaysian. The national language is Malay. It is spoken by the majority of Malaysians who are Malay. The minorities in Malaysia are the Chinese, who speak mandarin, the Indians, who are mainly Tamil(from south india, which means they are ethnically different from the north indians), and various other minority races who are based on the island of borneo, not on the peninsula itself. I myself am Indian, but my first language is english since that is what I speak to most people and I am most fluent at it. So as you would have guessed I dont speak Chinese(mandarin).

 

[Cakravarti]

Originally posted by Aetius
I think this discussion is quite beside the point. Even if the Chinese could have developed cannons more advanced than the equivalent than those available in Europe and the Levant they clearly didn't. Gunpowder alone doesn't make cannons neither does bronze casting. Knowing about them obviously helps, but there are other factors to consider, necessity being one of them.
I would hesitate to argue any primacy of invention. If the Romans discovered reinforced concrete and clockwork, inventions that subsequently were forgotten, who knows what else they might have had? When was/is "our" time period btw?

Our time period is 1419-1820. I thought the Ming had used cannons to overthrow the Yuan.

 

[Mohe]

Originally posted by Cakravarti


Our time period is 1419-1820. I thought the Ming had used cannons to overthrow the Yuan.

They did.

 

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Instead of debating whether China, Dai Viet or others should be allowed to develo better technology, just leave it as an option for the players. That way, we can play or fantasize what ever we want.
After all, China conquering India may be about as likely as Brandenburg taking out France.

 

[Agelastus]

Originally posted by Cakravarti


Our time period is 1419-1820. I thought the Ming had used cannons to overthrow the Yuan.

Gunpowder weaponry, certainly, but probably not many true cannons-there are literally hundreds of Chinese names for various types (mostly on the line of "great roaring thunder"......er......"dragon", for example.) Many of them seem to have been fire-throwers of some kind (as in Roman candles.)

The ineffectiveness of Ming gunpowder weaponry against the Manchu partly caused the subsequent Manchu neglect of the field, the weaponry being associated with a defeated regime.

 

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Originally posted by Agelastus


Gunpowder weaponry, certainly, but probably not many true cannons-there are literally hundreds of Chinese names for various types (mostly on the line of "great roaring thunder"......er......"dragon", for example.) Many of them seem to have been fire-throwers of some kind (as in Roman candles.)

The ineffectiveness of Ming gunpowder weaponry against the Manchu partly caused the subsequent Manchu neglect of the field, the weaponry being associated with a defeated regime.

You're right the Mingh might have used gunpowder but they werent really too big on cannons

 

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Originally posted by Cakravarti


Actually there is no language called Malaysian. The national language is Malay. It is spoken by the majority of Malaysians who are Malay. The minorities in Malaysia are the Chinese, who speak mandarin, the Indians, who are mainly Tamil(from south india, which means they are ethnically different from the north indians), and various other minority races who are based on the island of borneo, not on the peninsula itself. I myself am Indian, but my first language is english since that is what I speak to most people and I am most fluent at it. So as you would have guessed I dont speak Chinese(mandarin).

cool,do you speak Hindi or Urdu?

 

[Cakravarti]

Originally posted by proudirishmick



cool,do you speak Hindi or Urdu?

Actually neither. I speak tamil, which is south indian/dravidian. Hindi is a north indian/aryan language. Urdu is a hybrid language, its script is Perso-Arabic while its vocabulary was borrowed from the sanskrit derivatives of northern india(sanskrit being the latin of india).

 

[Blade!]

Originally posted by Hannibal Barca

The Chinese were the first to discover iron casting around the sixth century, when they mixed tin and copper together. So they have the first iron cannon.

Except that Tin and Copper don't make Iron! I think they make Bronze!

 

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Is there an echo in here?

Hannibal