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Ovan

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What do you guys think about the idea for a game that's like Stellaris. In that you create a race, Empire, have ethics etc. etc, but instead of being in space, it takes place below on a randomly generated fantasy planet?

Your tech, race, and other such things are related to common fantasy elements in things like LOTR, GoT, Elder Scrolls, Zelda, etc.

I personally would love a game like this, but, I wonder what others may think?
 
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Andy_Dandy

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Yeah, the game market has mostly low strategy/high tactics games to offer in the fantasy "strategy" department. A deep Grand Strategy Fantasy 4X is very much sought after.
 

Ovan

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If you don't mind, I tweaked the title a bit before it accidentally got moved to the Stellaris subforum.

That's fair.

Yeah, the game market has mostly low strategy/high tactics games to offer in the fantasy "strategy" department. A deep Grand Strategy Fantasy 4X is very much sought after.

I have searched high and wide and as far as I can tell, there's no grand strategy fantasy game anywhere. Especially not a 4X one. It seems like something a lot of people want, and it could work very well.

Even if you just take the basic paradox formula and add to it. Make the 'ethics' system more like an alignment system, with chaotic, good, evil, etc. It seems really obvious to me.
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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I have searched high and wide and as far as I can tell, there's no grand strategy fantasy game anywhere. Especially not a 4X one. It seems like something a lot of people want, and it could work very well.

Even if you just take the basic paradox formula and add to it. Make the 'ethics' system more like an alignment system, with chaotic, good, evil, etc. It seems really obvious to me.
Have you checked Warlock: Masters of the Arcane or Warlock 2: The Exiled? They might be along the lines of what you're looking for (and Paradox published them). Of course I haven't played either in a long time.
 

Ovan

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Have you checked Warlock: Masters of the Arcane or Warlock 2: The Exiled? They might be along the lines of what you're looking for (and Paradox published them). Of course I haven't played either in a long time.

Well, I have now. This looks up the alley of what I was thinking of, think I'm going to try it.

EDIT: Got it, it's alright. Kinda glitchy, not a huge fan of turn based but w/e.
 
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Denkt

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The problem is to make a good unique story while also keeping it playable. If they can get the story and the gameplay elements to work well (and I mean good gameplay elements not tedious boring stuff), then they should do it.

A bunch of races starting in the same world at the same development stage don't really sound like a good story to me. It would take alot of good backstory for it to make sense even as a fantasy setting and then that setting have been done so many times over that Im not sure it would make for a good game.

What I want to see is unique story + unique game, with both of those conditions we can have something really nice.
 
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Mr. Capiatlist

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Well, I have now. This looks up the alley of what I was thinking of, think I'm going to try it.

EDIT: Got it, it's alright. Kinda glitchy, not a huge fan of turn based but w/e.
They're far from perfect but they are a jumping-off point for what you're talking about, I think.
 

Ovan

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They're far from perfect but they are a jumping-off point for what you're talking about, I think.

I agree, they are. Fantasy world with nice customization. That's basically what I'm talking about. This thread could even go to a Warlock 3 thread, since it hits the criteria.

The problem is to make a good unique story while also keeping it playable. If they can get the story and the gameplay elements to work well (and I mean good gameplay elements not tedious boring stuff), then they should do it.

A bunch of races starting in the same world at the same development stage don't really sound like a good story to me. It would take alot of good backstory for it to make sense even as a fantasy setting and then that setting have been done so many times over that Im not sure it would make for a good game.

What I want to see is unique story + unique game, with both of those conditions we can have something really nice.

Eh, not sure how Paradox really is with story. Typically they either use historical settings, or just drop you in and say "have at it" which is what I likely expect out of a game like this.
 

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That's fair.



I have searched high and wide and as far as I can tell, there's no grand strategy fantasy game anywhere. Especially not a 4X one. It seems like something a lot of people want, and it could work very well.

Even if you just take the basic paradox formula and add to it. Make the 'ethics' system more like an alignment system, with chaotic, good, evil, etc. It seems really obvious to me.

Dominions. Super ugly but there is nothing even close in terms of complexity and content
 

Dnote

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Well, Age of Wonders kind of fits that bill, but is turn based not real time, still a great game though.

Come to think of it, there aren't really many developers out there making grand strategy games, most fall into the turn based strategy trope that Civilization popularized.
 

Andy_Dandy

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Yeah, but Age of Wonders is very shallow on empire management (just barely deeper then Heroes of Might and Magic), has rather primitive diplomacy, and has a tech-tree just for spells. It's for the most parts focused on fancy tactical combat and does that very well. I wouldn't call it deep on the strategical parts.

Can't think of many/any games fitting the bill, but Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes did try to some extent. I think Paradox is the only ones that can make it right, maybe Firaxis or Stardock (if investing enough in it, and a few experiences richer since last time). Paradox made their first Space strategy ever, and now with 1.8 it's already the best Space strategy ever made.

What I'd like to see is deeper strategical gameplay from a fantasy game, preferably in the 4X genre. If it's turn based or slow real time doesen't matter so much. Stellaris proved that 4X can be done very well in real time though, but I think you then would have to sacrifice the turn based tactical combats that so many loves in this genre (eventhough games like Dominions manages well without, but still has turn based campaign map play that allows the player time to watch videoes of the battle).
 
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Ovan

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Well, Age of Wonders kind of fits that bill, but is turn based not real time, still a great game though.

Come to think of it, there aren't really many developers out there making grand strategy games, most fall into the turn based strategy trope that Civilization popularized.

That's the problem I have now, most of them are just civ reskins, honestly.
 

Denkt

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That's the problem I have now, most of them are just civ reskins, honestly.
Many of them are better than civ series nowdays and actually alot of stuff used in civ VI have been used years ago by other games.

In a few years I could maybe make the game you ask for but Im not sure if I want to because I may want to make other games. The problem is the game need a really good story that give a good explanation how the world came to be like it is otherwise I feel the game is going to be soulless.

And it also need good fun gameplay that work well with the story and the whole thing need to be unique as well. So there is quite alot of work to do just on the design, the ai must be able to play competently as well. But if everything is done well it can be a really nice game.

I think crusader king II may make a good starting point because you most certainly want to have characters and probably some deep once as when I think fantasy characters tend to be pretty much the first thing I think of. Pops is a good idea as you need a system that can represent multiple races and that is something that can be done with pops.

Your tech, race, and other such things are related to common fantasy elements in things like LOTR, GoT, Elder Scrolls, Zelda, etc.
I rather see paradox create a new unique universe. Like stellairs, exploration should be a major focus.
 
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Well, Age of Wonders kind of fits that bill, but is turn based not real time, still a great game though.

Come to think of it, there aren't really many developers out there making grand strategy games, most fall into the turn based strategy trope that Civilization popularized.

In fairness, turn based is awesome.

I'd be very on board with a fantasy Paradox game though.
 

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Well, Age of Wonders kind of fits that bill, but is turn based not real time, still a great game though.

Come to think of it, there aren't really many developers out there making grand strategy games, most fall into the turn based strategy trope that Civilization popularized.

Sounds like the time to pitch a fantasy grand strategy to someone at the office and get a nice bonus ;)
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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Well, I'm the one they need to pitch to, no point in me pitching to myself as I can't make it. :)
Okay, well then...

*ehem*

Using the RNW feature from EUIV, Paradox should work on a EU:R-esque (i.e. nation is played as a single state, but with individual characters generated because we need those thousand-year-old dynasties of god-chosen heroes) fantasy game.

Like Stellaris, players and AI can play as randomized races as well as some pre-generated races filling normal fantasy tropes (e.g. humans, elves, orcs, vampires). Races can be defined by portraits and racial traits (e.g. Elves: Immortal, Nature-Tuned, Slow Breeding; Humans: Quick Lives, Versatile, Breed with Anything; Vampires: Immortal, Monstrous Siring...) and realms can be defined with realm traits (e.g. Rohan: Cavalry Army, Honor-Bound; Gondor: Thousand-Year Prestige, Chosen Lineage; etc...). Dynasties will also have a limited pool of traits, adding to the replayability. Some traits are permanent and chosen at game start. Others can come and go based off rulers, decrees, and what buildings have been added to the realm.

Provinces would be the EU-style (via the RNW generator), with the Stellaris-styled grid system with size based off "potential" instead of physical size. Potential is defined by access to resources, farming, rivers; and will also define what things can be built. Special multi-tile upgrades include forts and cities, which are upgraded villages. This potential could be tied to racial traits, so a desert province might have more "space" for a race of desert naga than for temperate elves. This opens up terrain that is normally not open for settlement in normal Paradox games - for example mermaids control and settle the oceans as humans do the land. Using the CKII "no military access" set-up, moving units through owned provinces could worsen relations between states, units would take attrition in unfriendly lands, and owners would have the option of demanding tolls or compensation. Refusal to pay might result in stand-offs or even wars.

The RNW generator would need to be tweaked to favor large contiguous land masses, more in the vein of Crusader Kings than EUIV. Oceans and lakes are important for variety and mountains necessary for races such as dwarves and goblins that might favor subterranean realms. This might mean replacing a height map with a better generation for terrain type (and then producing the height map after the fact, based off those terrains?).

Armies would be like CKII, with unit specialization. There will be unique units that are generated based on racial and realm traits. Realms will have a limit number of unique units, three to five. These don't necessarily need to be powerful units, they just need to be balanced on the upper side of the power spectrum. For example, vampires unique units might be super cheap zombie units that replenish quickly after battle and effectively have infinite morale (granted by "evil" racial trait and "magical schools" realm trait).

The time frame also needs to lend itself to the fantasy setting, potentially tens of thousands of years. Instead of individual days, each month should be divided into three ticks (beginning, middle, end; or 1st, 11th, 21st). Interesting combinations could be rolled per campaign where seasons are regular (like Earth), or irregular (like Westeros), or unchanging (north is always winter, south is always summer).

This also means that realm sizes need to be limited, with only certain rulers being able to piece together large realms that essentially disintegrate on their death. The CKII tributary feature might be a good starting point for this. Players should not feel punished for their realm disintegrating. Instead it should be emphasized that this is a natural part of the ebb and flow of a normal game. Conquering the "whole world" should not end the game, as the realm will fall apart with time, or trigger a large invasion from outside the map. An emphasis on good versus evil, and divine bloodlines.

Large realms require sub-rulers and characters to govern far-off provinces. Characters can only control contiguous lands within a certain distance of their primary location. This would prevent such issues as in CKII with Horde rulers owning a random collection of provinces throughout the map and not a defensible realm; or the "snake" realms that sometimes occurs in EUIV as a realm annexes just a thin stream of provinces.

Users will have control over many aspects via the rules panel pre-game launch. Including selecting season type, game length, and how many "god-touched dynasties" (lucky nations) exist on start up. Other options could include map size, giving options for those with less powerful computers, and whether or not aquatic races exist.

As a long-term game, ensuring that the game remains interesting throughout is highly important. The lack of realm stability should be a great way to boost this. A dynamic map that avoids huge blobs means there is always something to do. Other ideas include an ebb and flow of magic (worlds can be "high magic", "low magic", "magical tides", "decreasing magic", "increasing magic", "magical cataclysms"), multiple "golden" and "dark" ages that universally influence the map, mid and late game invasions, and world-changing events. When a realm collapses the player can choose which of the successor states to play, or maybe when a realm is conquered it's leaders are exiled and become a nomadic group that can be granted land in a new area or maybe roam for centuries, waiting for a time to retake their throne (e.g. Aragorn in LotR). Lesser dynasties that haven't settled die-out in time, but those truly blessed by the gods with the right to rule will persist for a long time.

More ambitiously the team could develop a dynamic map system wherein major events can literally reshape the world. Events analogous to the sinking of Numenor might befall a realm that dares challenge the gods. Or like Pathfinder's starfall, perhaps the world is struck by a massive, magical asteroid? The event might mean an age of utter chaos that lasts for hundreds of years, but those that survive will find themselves all the stronger for it.

A user can select from a number of "ending" conditions. The most common would be they can run out the clock. Other options include, but are not limited to: creating a spell so powerful that the world is brought into permanent grace, creating a spell so powerful the world blinks out of existence (or the gods send the ultimate punishment), or perhaps they finally forge a kingdom powerful enough with a dynasty lead by kings who wield the absolute authority of the gods that the world is brought into perpetual peace.