TBox said:
Last version: http://members.chello.nl/b.kroonspecker/Lotharingia.zip (version 1.4a)
Since jordik was banned for asking why a certain product used spyware-like tactics to destroy other software, there will be no more updates of this mod.
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Last version: http://members.chello.nl/b.kroonspecker/Lotharingia.zip (version 1.4a)
Since jordik was banned for asking why a certain product used spyware-like tactics to destroy other software, there will be no more updates of this mod.
jordarkelf said:
Thanks.
OMG, you've got me covered in curiosity now. But I don't wanna be banned, so I'm gonna hafta sit on it, aren't I? I was wondering about that very subject.
(Edit: Er, that is, wondering why Jordik was banned. I have no clue what product(s) you're talking about.)
Find a post by Jordik, click on his name and search for his last posts, you will then see why he got banned.
And as a friendly reminder, lengthy discussions about banned people have a tendency to break Forum Rule 2.
Link
As for the thread topic, an issue with any incarnation of Lotharingia is that it will either be far too easy for Germany to create another title, or have weird (unhistoric) borders.
If unclaimed, one result is that once the "Lotharingians" will not re-pledge to Germany, weakening the realm and possibly allowing for France to invade easier.
The "automatic" title creation by Germany could be fixed by making some counts or dukes in the area independent from the start, but that's ahistorical except for possibly Frisia.
If unclaimed, one result is that once the "Lotharingians" will not re-pledge to Germany, weakening the realm and possibly allowing for France to invade easier.
The "automatic" title creation by Germany could be fixed by making some counts or dukes in the area independent from the start, but that's ahistorical except for possibly Frisia.
That Lothrangians wouldn't repledge to HRE would be kind of historical though, since they weren't exactly the most enthustiastic vassals. Though Italians repledging is more odd. HRE is kinda problematic thing, really. Removing repledging completely and having forced vasallization option might work, but that's CK2 wishlist stuff practically. 
Philosophy of Kingdoms
Absolutely correct on all counts.
Jordik (not discussing him, not discussing him...) decided it was more important that Lotharingia have historic borders, *I* decided that it was more important that it not be instantly creatable by Germany. In other words, its ahistoricity (Just look at my pictures!) is a conscious design decision. Not that I've posted the three files I've changed to make it happen, but I play with the mod now.
The lotharingians not repledging to Germany is a *feature* in my book, at least for the Dutch provinces. Veldmaarschalk makes some compelling arguments, but if you listen to the modern Frisians, the area seems to have been vassals of Germany mostly by default (indeed, the default scenario setup) and if the King of Germany had ever pissed them off, they would have been just as likely to stay independent until someone ambitious conquered them again. I confess, however, that that source is likely rewriting history a little in order to feel good about their own cultural heritage.
I extend the same privilege to the Flemish, because I am a poor, benighted, uneducated parvenu who tends to ahistorically lump all those niederlanders together. And because I have the impression that the Count of Flanders was a pretty powerful position that needed to be appeased, not oppressed.
I am seriously concerned that UPLO and LOLO will choose to stay independent, when they're so very, very German, but it's impossible for me to imagine a Lotharingia without Upper and Lower Lorraine as a part of it. If Byakhiam could give me a source (any source) for how they were "unenthusiastic vassals", I'd appreciate it.
Otherwise, I'd seriously considered re-adding Frisia to the Lotharingia title and *dropping* UPLO, at the least, but that is too much in favor of gameplay at the expense of history.
Marking Frisia independent at the start of the game and tagging them as U019 in order to prevent GERM from creating U019 out of the gate is a marvelous idea, but that would involve editing the scenarios, and I'm far more comfortable editing only the DB... since I can then make better arguments based on my rant to Veldmaarschalk, that the underlying kingdom tags must be measured on their contribution to historically plausible behavior and not on any inherent historicity itself.... and a suddenly, irrationally independent UPLO/LOLO trying to recreate the Lotharingian crown I find to be incredibly historically plausible. Of course, they need the support of Flanders... shame I can't include Frisia in that mess, it'd be very poetic... the Lorraines have the claim, the Frisians have the desire, and the Flemish have... um... something to contribute... I don't know enough about the Flemish, anyone got a source I can look at?... creating a sorta Lotharingian confederation.
Damn, I'm talking myself into changing the starting scenario to make Friesland independent and U019 flagged. Bad TBox!
Speaking of my warped opinion on Kingdom flagging, I ran across the Philosophy of Kingdoms thread in the BETA forum, which sorta petered out. Anyone actually working on a Core Kingdoms mod? I'd fit right in, philosophically.
jordarkelf said:
Absolutely correct on all counts.
Jordik (not discussing him, not discussing him...) decided it was more important that Lotharingia have historic borders, *I* decided that it was more important that it not be instantly creatable by Germany. In other words, its ahistoricity (Just look at my pictures!) is a conscious design decision. Not that I've posted the three files I've changed to make it happen, but I play with the mod now.
The lotharingians not repledging to Germany is a *feature* in my book, at least for the Dutch provinces. Veldmaarschalk makes some compelling arguments, but if you listen to the modern Frisians, the area seems to have been vassals of Germany mostly by default (indeed, the default scenario setup) and if the King of Germany had ever pissed them off, they would have been just as likely to stay independent until someone ambitious conquered them again. I confess, however, that that source is likely rewriting history a little in order to feel good about their own cultural heritage.
I extend the same privilege to the Flemish, because I am a poor, benighted, uneducated parvenu who tends to ahistorically lump all those niederlanders together. And because I have the impression that the Count of Flanders was a pretty powerful position that needed to be appeased, not oppressed.
I am seriously concerned that UPLO and LOLO will choose to stay independent, when they're so very, very German, but it's impossible for me to imagine a Lotharingia without Upper and Lower Lorraine as a part of it. If Byakhiam could give me a source (any source) for how they were "unenthusiastic vassals", I'd appreciate it.
Otherwise, I'd seriously considered re-adding Frisia to the Lotharingia title and *dropping* UPLO, at the least, but that is too much in favor of gameplay at the expense of history.
Marking Frisia independent at the start of the game and tagging them as U019 in order to prevent GERM from creating U019 out of the gate is a marvelous idea, but that would involve editing the scenarios, and I'm far more comfortable editing only the DB... since I can then make better arguments based on my rant to Veldmaarschalk, that the underlying kingdom tags must be measured on their contribution to historically plausible behavior and not on any inherent historicity itself.... and a suddenly, irrationally independent UPLO/LOLO trying to recreate the Lotharingian crown I find to be incredibly historically plausible. Of course, they need the support of Flanders... shame I can't include Frisia in that mess, it'd be very poetic... the Lorraines have the claim, the Frisians have the desire, and the Flemish have... um... something to contribute... I don't know enough about the Flemish, anyone got a source I can look at?... creating a sorta Lotharingian confederation.
Damn, I'm talking myself into changing the starting scenario to make Friesland independent and U019 flagged. Bad TBox!
Speaking of my warped opinion on Kingdom flagging, I ran across the Philosophy of Kingdoms thread in the BETA forum, which sorta petered out. Anyone actually working on a Core Kingdoms mod? I'd fit right in, philosophically.