I was reading the "Kingdom of Lotharingia Mod" thread and started a reply which spiralled into this monstrosity, and I thought it deserved its own thread.
I'm very weak on Lotharingian history; I only came to learn/care about Lotharingia at all because Lorraine is the only EUII nation with both French and German culture, and that's an unsneezable amount of state-cultured manpower to have access to.
The only source I could find that went into any detail was http://www.friesian.com/lorraine.htm .
The author claims that "earlier lotharingia" was never called Lotharingia, but Francia Media, and "later Lotharingia" was named Lotharingia for Lothar II, who got it, not Lothar I. Is he full of it? I admit his writing style strikes me more as "My Arrogant Opinion" and not good historical scholarship.
Segueing HUGELY here. the main reason why the official version people don't like Lotharingia is because it's too easy for Germany to create for free prestige. (Or so I understand.)
It occurs to me that if you think of Lothar I as playing Crusader Kings, and *not* living real life, then he's using gavelkind inheritance, and before he died, he Created the titles of Lotharingia, Burgundy, and Italy (this assumes the timeline presented by Friesan.com, which other people's comments gives me reason to doubt.) But under CK rules, to create a King of Lotharingia title to pass on to Lothar II, he only needs 66% of Lotharingian provinces under his belt.
So, imagine I'm writing a fantasy mod only partly based on history. I want a Lotharingian kingdom, but I don't want Germany to be able to create it gratis. In other words, I want to satisfy Byakhiam's gameplay requirements by ignoring the historical requirements. I would do this by making the 1066 German possessions less than 66% of All Lotharingia, but I would make the sum of all historic Lotharingian possesions over 66%.
If I take the latest version of the Kingdom of Lotharingia Mod that's actually downloadable as the best guess definition of historical Lotharingia, then there are 22 provinces held by Germany in 1066 (I'm not ambitious enough yet to look at the other scenarios), and 2 held by France: Vermandois and Troyes. (Yes, I know the *comments* say that Troyes was removed, but that's not what's downloadable). This means that the smallest theoretical "All Lotharingia" would have to be 34 provinces for all 24 historical provinces to give you 66% (70.6%), but for only the German 22 to give you less than 66% (64.7%).
At this point I could solicit requests for which 12 provinces that are held by the King of France in 1066 would be best added to an underlying uncreated Lotharingian crown.
Or, I could posit that Lothar I, in his extreme cleverness, managed to give Lothar II not only the title King of Lotharingia, but some extraneous German duchy as well... that is, if Lothar II inherited as titles both King of Lotharingia and Duke of Friesland, then a CK realm map of 855 would be indistinguishable from the historical Lotharingia, even though the underlying province base required for creating Lotharingia was actually very different (IE, did not include Friesland, did include significant West Frankish holdings). Depending on your source, excluding Friesland may even be plausible. And this means that a minimal Lotharingia that meets my requirements would only have to be 25 provinces, and I only need 9 french-held provinces, since subtracting the 6 (what happened to oldenburg?) Friesian provinces from the German territories leaves 16 German-held Lotharingian provinces, and 16/25 = .64 and King of Lotharingia is an uncreatable title at game start.
Vermandois is obviously one. Troyes will do as another. If I return Yperen and Brugge (Flanders certainly had no love of the French crown), I'd feel obligated to return Gent, but that's okay, because round off error mean I still only need 5 more provinces. But as long as I'm "returning" provinces, I'd like to return Kleves and Mainz so that LOLO is an entirely Lotharingian duchy, and then return Pfalz so that UPLO is entirely Lotharingian (whoops, I think I downloaded the wrong version), which would kick my French requirement up two. (20/29=67.8%, 20/30=2/3, 20/31=64.5%, 31-20=11-Vermandois, Troyes, Yperen, Brugge = 7. (Gent, Kleves, Mainz, Pfalz -- hardly seems worth dumping Friesland!)
So I still need 7 French Counties that were never a part of Lotharingia that I would paint Lotharingian. In an effort to be historically informed, though not historically correct, I'm asking for opinions. Which Counties held by the King of France in 1066 would seem most likely to have Lotharingian sympathies? That is, if suitably pissed at the King of France, which counties would choose to defect to a King of Lotharingia, if he had existed? I'm tempted to head south, and simply paint the French Bourgogne holdings as Lotharingian (leaving the Burgundy Bourgogne holdings as Burgundy, of course), but Forez, though part of the Kingdom of France, is German held in 1066, which screws up the math again.
. Round off error saves me from needing another French province, (except to replace the one I *thought* Forez would be...) but now I've dumped Friesland's six German provinces only to pick up 5 more German provinces! Some deal!
So, stapling French Bourgogne onto Lotharingia gives me 5, 2 left... EUII seems to feel Artois is Dutch (French cultured, but like Luxembourg, included in *all* the Dutch events), and that friction could be enough to pull it away from France, so I could slap it on to Lotharingia as well. So, the Duchies of Artois, Flanders, Hainaut, Brabant, Luxembourg, Upper and Lower Lorraine, Champagne, and those parts of Bourgogne that are currently France instead of Burgundy would be Greater Lotharingia, and Friesland is ahistorically demoted to a vassal duchy that otherwise wasn't "natively" Lotharingian. It's my mod, maybe I'll vindictively reduce Friesland to NONE as its kingdom. 32 provinces is a little larger than Byakhiam's recommendation, but it isn't creatable in 1066, (21 german provinces / 32 total = 65.6%), and owning all of *historical* Lotharingia (add Vermandois) would allow you to create it (although Friesland is uncomfortably superfluous for that.) Mission accomplished, if somewhat sloppily. There are refinements.. I could make it 30 provinces by stripping transrhine LOLO, which Friesan.com suggests is appropriate, and makes the Rhine a neat eastern border. If I then call Troyes a part of "historical" Lotharingia, then arbitrarily return Forez to the Kingdom of France, it's 29 provinces, and Germany needs two French conquests to be able to Create it after 1066, and I can still claim that owning all of historical Lotharingia lets you create the Lotharingian crown.
I really can't seem to shut up. If anyone is with me on this and hasn't turned away in righteous history major wrath, let me know if you have any better ideas for a Greater Lotharingia that Germany is prevented from creating in 1066 because of missing a crucial province or two, preferably between 20 and 30 provinces total, that covers as much of historical Lotharingia as possible.
jordik said:
I'm very weak on Lotharingian history; I only came to learn/care about Lotharingia at all because Lorraine is the only EUII nation with both French and German culture, and that's an unsneezable amount of state-cultured manpower to have access to.
The only source I could find that went into any detail was http://www.friesian.com/lorraine.htm .
The author claims that "earlier lotharingia" was never called Lotharingia, but Francia Media, and "later Lotharingia" was named Lotharingia for Lothar II, who got it, not Lothar I. Is he full of it? I admit his writing style strikes me more as "My Arrogant Opinion" and not good historical scholarship.
Finellach said:
Segueing HUGELY here. the main reason why the official version people don't like Lotharingia is because it's too easy for Germany to create for free prestige. (Or so I understand.)
It occurs to me that if you think of Lothar I as playing Crusader Kings, and *not* living real life, then he's using gavelkind inheritance, and before he died, he Created the titles of Lotharingia, Burgundy, and Italy (this assumes the timeline presented by Friesan.com, which other people's comments gives me reason to doubt.) But under CK rules, to create a King of Lotharingia title to pass on to Lothar II, he only needs 66% of Lotharingian provinces under his belt.
So, imagine I'm writing a fantasy mod only partly based on history. I want a Lotharingian kingdom, but I don't want Germany to be able to create it gratis. In other words, I want to satisfy Byakhiam's gameplay requirements by ignoring the historical requirements. I would do this by making the 1066 German possessions less than 66% of All Lotharingia, but I would make the sum of all historic Lotharingian possesions over 66%.
If I take the latest version of the Kingdom of Lotharingia Mod that's actually downloadable as the best guess definition of historical Lotharingia, then there are 22 provinces held by Germany in 1066 (I'm not ambitious enough yet to look at the other scenarios), and 2 held by France: Vermandois and Troyes. (Yes, I know the *comments* say that Troyes was removed, but that's not what's downloadable). This means that the smallest theoretical "All Lotharingia" would have to be 34 provinces for all 24 historical provinces to give you 66% (70.6%), but for only the German 22 to give you less than 66% (64.7%).
At this point I could solicit requests for which 12 provinces that are held by the King of France in 1066 would be best added to an underlying uncreated Lotharingian crown.
Or, I could posit that Lothar I, in his extreme cleverness, managed to give Lothar II not only the title King of Lotharingia, but some extraneous German duchy as well... that is, if Lothar II inherited as titles both King of Lotharingia and Duke of Friesland, then a CK realm map of 855 would be indistinguishable from the historical Lotharingia, even though the underlying province base required for creating Lotharingia was actually very different (IE, did not include Friesland, did include significant West Frankish holdings). Depending on your source, excluding Friesland may even be plausible. And this means that a minimal Lotharingia that meets my requirements would only have to be 25 provinces, and I only need 9 french-held provinces, since subtracting the 6 (what happened to oldenburg?) Friesian provinces from the German territories leaves 16 German-held Lotharingian provinces, and 16/25 = .64 and King of Lotharingia is an uncreatable title at game start.
Vermandois is obviously one. Troyes will do as another. If I return Yperen and Brugge (Flanders certainly had no love of the French crown), I'd feel obligated to return Gent, but that's okay, because round off error mean I still only need 5 more provinces. But as long as I'm "returning" provinces, I'd like to return Kleves and Mainz so that LOLO is an entirely Lotharingian duchy, and then return Pfalz so that UPLO is entirely Lotharingian (whoops, I think I downloaded the wrong version), which would kick my French requirement up two. (20/29=67.8%, 20/30=2/3, 20/31=64.5%, 31-20=11-Vermandois, Troyes, Yperen, Brugge = 7. (Gent, Kleves, Mainz, Pfalz -- hardly seems worth dumping Friesland!)
So I still need 7 French Counties that were never a part of Lotharingia that I would paint Lotharingian. In an effort to be historically informed, though not historically correct, I'm asking for opinions. Which Counties held by the King of France in 1066 would seem most likely to have Lotharingian sympathies? That is, if suitably pissed at the King of France, which counties would choose to defect to a King of Lotharingia, if he had existed? I'm tempted to head south, and simply paint the French Bourgogne holdings as Lotharingian (leaving the Burgundy Bourgogne holdings as Burgundy, of course), but Forez, though part of the Kingdom of France, is German held in 1066, which screws up the math again.
. Round off error saves me from needing another French province, (except to replace the one I *thought* Forez would be...) but now I've dumped Friesland's six German provinces only to pick up 5 more German provinces! Some deal! So, stapling French Bourgogne onto Lotharingia gives me 5, 2 left... EUII seems to feel Artois is Dutch (French cultured, but like Luxembourg, included in *all* the Dutch events), and that friction could be enough to pull it away from France, so I could slap it on to Lotharingia as well. So, the Duchies of Artois, Flanders, Hainaut, Brabant, Luxembourg, Upper and Lower Lorraine, Champagne, and those parts of Bourgogne that are currently France instead of Burgundy would be Greater Lotharingia, and Friesland is ahistorically demoted to a vassal duchy that otherwise wasn't "natively" Lotharingian. It's my mod, maybe I'll vindictively reduce Friesland to NONE as its kingdom. 32 provinces is a little larger than Byakhiam's recommendation, but it isn't creatable in 1066, (21 german provinces / 32 total = 65.6%), and owning all of *historical* Lotharingia (add Vermandois) would allow you to create it (although Friesland is uncomfortably superfluous for that.) Mission accomplished, if somewhat sloppily. There are refinements.. I could make it 30 provinces by stripping transrhine LOLO, which Friesan.com suggests is appropriate, and makes the Rhine a neat eastern border. If I then call Troyes a part of "historical" Lotharingia, then arbitrarily return Forez to the Kingdom of France, it's 29 provinces, and Germany needs two French conquests to be able to Create it after 1066, and I can still claim that owning all of historical Lotharingia lets you create the Lotharingian crown.
I really can't seem to shut up. If anyone is with me on this and hasn't turned away in righteous history major wrath, let me know if you have any better ideas for a Greater Lotharingia that Germany is prevented from creating in 1066 because of missing a crucial province or two, preferably between 20 and 30 provinces total, that covers as much of historical Lotharingia as possible.
