Fanatic Xenophobes =/= Fanatic Xenophiles

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Strangedane

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Xenophobes should get a +15 "grudging respect" towards each other.
Fanatic xenos should not, but unless isolationalists shouldn't care about purging. (oh look, the savages are murdering each other again)
 

Strangedane

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"They purged those aliens, what's to stop them from doing it to us?!"
"Besides our genetic superiority, our superior minds and our superior society, all backed by our superior fleets and soldiers?
Seriously Methone, stop worrying about the savages killing each other and pretend you're not some backwater colonist will you?
The rest of us are going to the bar, are you going to sit there reading conspiracy sites all night?"

#Racialsupremacy
 

Methone

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"Besides our genetic superiority, our superior minds and our superior society, all backed by our superior fleets and soldiers?
Seriously Methone, stop worrying about the savages killing each other and pretend you're not some backwater colonist will you?
The rest of us are going to the bar, are you going to sit there reading conspiracy sites all night?"

#Racialsupremacy
All joking aside, Xenophobia is just the idea that aliens are dangerous and not to be trusted. If aliens start killing each other out of a fanatic hatred of each other, then you'll just see that as you being proven right, they can't be trusted.

Pessimists are never happy to be proven right.
 

Riftwalker

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So I was just playing Commonwealth of Man and decided there's a few too many xenos in my empire. Granted enslaved but not really ideal. It's a Commonwealth of MAN after all. After deciding to deal with them and angering pretty much the entire galaxy I was puzzled why empires like Fanatic Xenophobes would care?

i mean... it gives me an excuse to invade you. :p

"ah, yes containment"
 

Strangedane

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All joking aside, Xenophobia is just the idea that aliens are dangerous and not to be trusted. If aliens start killing each other out of a fanatic hatred of each other, then you'll just see that as you being proven right, they can't be trusted.

Pessimists are never happy to be proven right.

But you're only allowing for 3 types of xenophobes and that seems strange.
The Isolationalists, the slavers and the Purifiers.

Why not allow for the racial supremacists as well, those who simply does not accept xenos as truly sentient beings?
I don't feel particularly threatened when a hive of ants purges another hive of ants, so why not allow for this sort of xenophobia in game as well?
 

Methone

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Why not allow for the racial supremacists as well, those who simply does not accept xenos as truly sentient beings?
Because that's not being xenophobic, that's just being stupid. "Ah yes, the nonsapient ants are building FTL spacecraft and city-worlds."
 

PirateJack

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But you're only allowing for 3 types of xenophobes and that seems strange.
The Isolationalists, the slavers and the Purifiers.

Why not allow for the racial supremacists as well, those who simply does not accept xenos as truly sentient beings?
I don't feel particularly threatened when a hive of ants purges another hive of ants, so why not allow for this sort of xenophobia in game as well?

Because that hive of ants has developed space travel and can bomb your planets as well.

Besides, that type of xenophobia still warrants an opinion penalty because they're so dismissive of other civilisations that they're not exactly approachable for trading. After all, no need to trade with ants.
 

Methone

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Because that hive of ants has developed space travel and can bomb your planets as well.

Besides, that type of xenophobia still warrants an opinion penalty because they're so dismissive of other civilisations that they're not exactly approachable for trading. After all, no need to trade with ants.
Something something Xenophobe FE.
 

wundte

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So I was just playing Commonwealth of Man and decided there's a few too many xenos in my empire. Granted enslaved but not really ideal. It's a Commonwealth of MAN after all. After deciding to deal with them and angering pretty much the entire galaxy I was puzzled why empires like Fanatic Xenophobes would care?

Maby those xenophobe wanted to deal with your xenos themself?
 

Saviour of Galaxy

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So I was just playing Commonwealth of Man and decided there's a few too many xenos in my empire. Granted enslaved but not really ideal. It's a Commonwealth of MAN after all. After deciding to deal with them and angering pretty much the entire galaxy I was puzzled why empires like Fanatic Xenophobes would care?

They shouldn't care about desplacing. However they should be aware of your purges if you outright kill the xenos (as they could be next victim on the list).
 

Strangedane

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Because that's not being xenophobic, that's just being stupid. "Ah yes, the nonsapient ants are building FTL spacecraft and city-worlds."
And yet we see it as a thrope in lots of scifi, so why not in stellaris?

In stargate the Goa'uld sees humans as little more than cattle and vessels, this hold true even after apophis dies at the hand of said humans, and was instead attributed to weakness from apophis, and NOT strenght from the cattle. While they are definately slavers, they don't see themselves as such.

The Dalek, for all their fanatical purification bases their entire existance on the understanding that they are the only true beings worthy existance, and consider all other forms of life inferior and wrong.
 

Methone

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And yet we see it as a thrope in lots of scifi, so why not in stellaris?
I mentioned this elsewhere, but we do have this. It's the Xenophobe FE. And the Xenophobe FE usually tends to get their faces stomped in when those 'savages' turn out to not be so primitive and undeserving of attention after all.
The Dalek, for all their fanatical purification bases their entire existance on the understanding that they are the only true beings worthy existance, and consider all other forms of life inferior and wrong.
Fanatic Purifiers.
 

Strangedane

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I mentioned this elsewhere, but we do have this. It's the Xenophobe FE. And the Xenophobe FE usually tends to get their faces stomped in when those 'savages' turn out to not be so primitive and undeserving of attention after all.
Fanatic Purifiers.

The dalek are a tad more complex than what we have as FP and that's what i'd love to model.

In both the old and the new series the Dalek regularly keep prisoners of war, and they even have biotrophies of varying sorts in both series.
Do we consider them part rogue servitors?

Furthermore the Dalek are technically cyborgs who overthrew their creators, so machine uprising DE in purely cyborg stages also seems fitting, especially with the central intelligence.
It depends where we put the focus, and as such the Dalek are way more complex than what the game can even come close to modelling.

Regardless. As you acknowledge yourself we already have the racial supremacy xenophobes in the game, why not allow the player to play as these or with these races on the empire board instead of only as FE?
Ed: And would it really be a bad idea tagging it onto fanatic xenophobes? It would mostly be flavour in any situation where you'd ever encounter it.
 

Kinkness

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Well the bottom line really is Fanatic Xenophobe =/= Fanatic Purifier & Fanatic Xenophobe =/= Fanatic Xenophile. Some of you raise excellent points, but I wouldn't just downplay it or brush it off. Xenophobes even without the Fanatic in their ethics should not be treated by the game like they're default baddies.

Looking at the game as it is right now. I'd love to give my allies and their species full citizenship and establish a migration treaty because we basically spent 200 years allied, helping each other out. Meaning these species are worth overlooking when it comes to xenophobic ideas. But the game doesn't support that. If anyone but humans lands on Commonwealth ground with equal rights that's suddenly a problem. Eh maybe I'm asking for too much but I very much dislike the black and white relations system as it is now.



I had this. After the purge they broke the alliance, even though at some point I went through their entirety territory, planet by planet. SAVING them from Fanatic Purifiers. The game doesn't recognize this.

This... which is why I keep stressing the next big update overhaul patch for next year needs to be diplomacy... a complete OVERHAUL of the diplomacy system...
 

Hyomoto

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I had to go back and read to try and get a handle on where this conversation is even headed, and maybe it's silly to interject here, but the Xenophobe FE's don't consider the other races around the galaxy as non-sentient beings. Even if you see cows as food, no one argues whether or not they are alive: we simply consider ourselves superior to them. So superior in fact, if it turns out cows are arming up and building nuclear weapons we'd be a bit screwed because we'd never see it coming. At least not as things stand.

Even hardcore racists see their hated groups as sentient, what they do not acknowledge is they are people. You know, like "we" are. And in most cases, the most hardcore racist isn't oblivious to the danger their target groups present: in fact it's much of their rhetoric. Sure, depending on the gap there is a bit of complacency, "look at the natives with their spears and primitive ways" evolves as they acquire sub-machine guns. But, quite frankly, a xenophobic isolationist doesn't think the rest of the galaxy is filled with missile wielding cows, they see the galaxy as full of savages and primates whose backward ways and violent natures is a threat to "our civilized and proper way of life". The isolationist bit is just a description of how they deal with it: specifically stay the hell out of our neighborhoods.
 

Foefaller

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By purging, you've become the personification of the very fear that likely drives their xenophobia. At the very least, you proven yourself to be Serious Business and a genuine threat.

Sure, they don't care at all about the aliens that go purged. They might even like it in some twisted way, but they are also going "See? We can't trust xenos! Look at what they just did! That's why we have to destroy them before they destroy us."

It's also worth noting that Fanatic Purifiers and the like are the *only* AI personalities that actively purge pops, all others, even the fanatic xenophobes, are slavers or displacers. Even the Xenophobic Fallen Empire doesn't purge (as of 2.2). By doing that, even on only a small scale, you've put yourself in a very exclusive group of people, though not one anyone would normally want to join
 

Jin_Cardassian

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Because that's not being xenophobic, that's just being stupid. "Ah yes, the nonsapient ants are building FTL spacecraft and city-worlds."

Supremacists often struggle to accept the accomplishments of other civilizations, so they engage in all kinds of mental gymnastics to explain why these don't actually matter or don't mean the people doing them have any real capabilities.

"Aliens building pyramids? No way they could figure that out on their own. It must have been aliens."