Fanatic Xenophobes =/= Fanatic Xenophiles

[Dug]

So I was just playing Commonwealth of Man and decided there's a few too many xenos in my empire. Granted enslaved but not really ideal. It's a Commonwealth of MAN after all. After deciding to deal with them and angering pretty much the entire galaxy I was puzzled why empires like Fanatic Xenophobes would care?

 

[SpectralShade]

So I was just playing Commonwealth of Man and decided there's a few too many xenos in my empire. Granted enslaved but not really ideal. It's a Commonwealth of MAN after all. After deciding to deal with them and angering pretty much the entire galaxy I was puzzled why empires like Fanatic Xenophobes would care?

only way I can see they should care is if some of the pops you didn't like happened to be pops of their type.

 

[Dug]

Exactly, it wasn't their pops. In fact they're no where near my galactic neighborhood.

 

[Matoro_TBS]

Maybe other xenophobes see you as xeno threat and with you having slaves they see it validate their point? Sure, they don't care about the pops you've enslaved, but they are wary of you because you do have x3no slaves. You are a threat to them, because the way they see it, you're going to enslave them as well if it comes to war.

 

[Dug]

On the other side of the galaxy? While they have xeno slaves? While we have mutual rivals somehow? Just makes no sense to have any anti xeno policies or ethics unless you plan to play fanatic purifier. There needs to be a bit of a line because for instance I have certain species set to domestic servitude and their living standards are decent, unlike other less equal counterparts.

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

Cognitive dissonance?

Perhaps they don't think of themselves as bloodthirsty purgers, just sensible pre-cautionists trying to maintain a wide cordon around their worlds and keep them free of negative influences.

They are totally unlike those evil alien empires out there that do all the real purging. You can't trust them. JUST LOOK AT THEIR SAVAGERY!!

 

[Dug]

While one could argue that, one could also argue there'd be empires who'd approve of this. It can't be all one way or the other surely?

 

[Orkonkel]

I agree with OP: if lizard xenophobes are purging rodent aliens a few clusters away, why would they care if I do the same to some avian xenos? Sure, diplomacy should still be tricky between xenophobe empires, but they shouldn't get -4000 relations because you're using the same politics of racial purity as them.

 

[Xeorm]

I'm betting they approve that there are less xenos, but are worried that some empire has the power to go through with it. Plus, they're not purifiers. Xenos are very much beneath them...but still not necessarily worthy of being systematically killed.

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

While one could argue that, one could also argue there'd be empires who'd approve of this. It can't be all one way or the other surely?

I suppose it depends. One way to model this could be that they don't care about anyone purging the primary species of a rival. That's still a bit finicky for the purger to figure out and predict, but with the removal of neighbor restrictions on rivals its a lot easier for Xenophobes to have rivals on the other side of the galaxy.

I agree with OP: if lizard xenophobes are purging rodent aliens a few clusters away, why would they care if I do the same to some avian xenos? Sure, diplomacy should still be tricky between xenophobe empires, but they shouldn't get -4000 relations because you're using the same politics of racial purity as them.

While I understand the intuitive appeal, it really never made make sense to me that Xenophobes have a harder time of diplomacy. Yes, they oppose integrated societies, but that doesn't mean that two Xenophobic empires can't ally as long as each agrees to "stay in their lane". They could even do it on the principle of opposing Xenophiles and their transgressive ideas.

And in that scenario, they wouldn't get made over each others' purges, because they each recognize a right to "weed" their respective gardens.

 

[Dug]

Well the bottom line really is Fanatic Xenophobe =/= Fanatic Purifier & Fanatic Xenophobe =/= Fanatic Xenophile. Some of you raise excellent points, but I wouldn't just downplay it or brush it off. Xenophobes even without the Fanatic in their ethics should not be treated by the game like they're default baddies.

Looking at the game as it is right now. I'd love to give my allies and their species full citizenship and establish a migration treaty because we basically spent 200 years allied, helping each other out. Meaning these species are worth overlooking when it comes to xenophobic ideas. But the game doesn't support that. If anyone but humans lands on Commonwealth ground with equal rights that's suddenly a problem. Eh maybe I'm asking for too much but I very much dislike the black and white relations system as it is now.

While I understand the intuitive appeal, it really never made make sense to me that Xenophobes have a harder time of diplomacy. Yes, they oppose integrated societies, but that doesn't mean that two Xenophobic empires can't ally as long as each agrees to "stay in their lane". They could even do it on the principle of opposing Xenophiles and their transgressive ideas.

I had this. After the purge they broke the alliance, even though at some point I went through their entirety territory, planet by planet. SAVING them from Fanatic Purifiers. The game doesn't recognize this.

 

[Brian Bóroimhe]

Eh maybe I'm asking for too much but I very much dislike the black and white relations system as it is now.

You are. I've seen a lot of threads like this basically since Stellaris launched. People want to have their cake and eat it.

If you go on genocidal rampages to annihilate an entire species then everyone in the galaxy should rightly be feeling very threatened by you. Even if they do think aliens are inferior to them.

I'm betting they approve that there are less xenos, but are worried that some empire has the power to go through with it. Plus, they're not purifiers. Xenos are very much beneath them...but still not necessarily worthy of being systematically killed.

It is worth noting that the fanatic purifiers do not care less about you having genocided anyone, neither lowering or improving their opinion of you.

Fanatic purifiers make their intentions perfectly clear from the beginning, the moment they meet anyone. If you are normal (even fanatic) xenophobe then you basically have the choice between taking that in an isolationist direction, the slaver path, or purger.

The moment you start purging species you show the galaxy that you're no different to those purifiers after all. It is not something that should ever be easy to get away with. After all, you have built yourself an enormous powerbase, your mighty fleet has just conquered a nation, it's neighbours are feeling threatened, but then you genocide the populace. The galaxy knows exactly what kind of scumbag you are now.

For the record, the opinion penalty does decrease with tube and scales to the extent of your purge, so if it really is a minor little couple of pops purge, then the galaxy will get over it in time. But yeah, when you've massacred enough innocents to drive it up into the -4000 range then you are unmistakable for what you are and any nation would be foolish to think they would be safe from you in the long run.

Also, these measures help to create challenges through federations etc to slow down the juggernaut snowball effect as you keep conquering, which makes the game stay interesting into the phase where most games have already become a boring mop up exercise.

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

Looking at the game as it is right now. I'd love to give my allies and their species full citizenship and establish a migration treaty because we basically spent 200 years allied, helping each other out. Meaning these species are worth overlooking when it comes to xenophobic ideas. But the game doesn't support that.

I kinda think that this is best explained as the experience of kinship shifting you out of being Xenophobe. Moving to the realization that "wow, I guess some aliens are actually alright" sounds pretty close to that. Shift out of Xenophobe and you can do all those things.

Now if you spoil the friendship by killing billions of their people, I think they're warranted in deciding to hate you again. If you had simply displaced them though, that's probably worth less of a penalty (if any). That's in keeping with the spirit of mutual separatism, rather than "the fuck did you just do to our people?!"

 

[Duuk]

Ironically, I can completely see a case where a fanatic xenophobe empire would have great relations with another fantic xenophobe empire that is sharing their dreams of racial purity, even though one of them is a beautiful majestic bison and the other is a gooey slightly moldy fungus.

"Yes, they smell a bit like old cheese, but they're one of the Good Ones out there. They understand that most of these galactic scum are no better than filth that should be wiped off the map with Bysol Spray. So of course we allowed them to establish a small city-colony organism on our homeworld. Have your tried their cooking? It's amazing."

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

Ironically, I can completely see a case where a fanatic xenophobe empire would have great relations with another fantic xenophobe empire that is sharing their dreams of racial purity, even though one of them is a beautiful majestic bison and the other is a gooey slightly moldy fungus.

"Yes, they smell a bit like old cheese, but they're one of the Good Ones out there. They understand that most of these galactic scum are no better than filth that should be wiped off the map with Bysol Spray. So of course we allowed them to establish a small city-colony organism on our homeworld. Have your tried their cooking? It's amazing."

Yeah, it's the whole "honorary Aryan" scenario. Could a Xenophobe respect one kind of alien enough to selectively allow friendlier interactions?

I would argue that in these cases, it's really more about them sharing the same basic worldview. It's like how Spiritualists and Materialists all tend to get along better with each other, even if they have different dogmas.

Anything the Xenophobes claim to admire (or at least accept with curiousity) about the other species' biology or behavior is really just going to be an ad hoc rationalization. Ironically, sometimes Xenophobes would get along better together than they would with Xenophiles. After all, the other Xenophobes aren't going to pressure them into a migration treaty so they can have xeno-compatible sex with their cousins.

So perhaps Xenophobes really shouldn't get so upset about other Xenophobes purging species, as long as that species is not their own. Being haters themselves they expect that. In fact they may want to do it to that species themselves, so it's not like they're surprised when someone else joins in the fun.

And if they are on friendly terms with another Xenophobe, they have the assurance that only third party species will be getting purged. At least until the other Xenophobe proves otherwise, in which case of course the partnership would end over that.

 

[Methone]

So I was just playing Commonwealth of Man and decided there's a few too many xenos in my empire. Granted enslaved but not really ideal. It's a Commonwealth of MAN after all. After deciding to deal with them and angering pretty much the entire galaxy I was puzzled why empires like Fanatic Xenophobes would care?

"They purged those aliens, what's to stop them from doing it to us?!"

 

[Hyomoto]

I'll just throw in my reason: because Stellaris desperately needs a diplomacy overhaul and right now it makes no sense. Xenophobes also like other xenophobes, and what an absolutely bizarre criteria. "You don't trust us? We don't trust you. Finally, some common ground!"

 

[Duuk]

I'll just throw in my reason: because Stellaris desperately needs a diplomacy overhaul and right now it makes no sense. Xenophobes also like other xenophobes, and what an absolutely bizarre criteria. "You don't trust us? We don't trust you. Finally, some common ground!"

Well, I fully expect it for 2.3 the Diplomacy and Faction expansion (any bets on which author it's based on?)

 

[Hyomoto]

I'm no sci-fi author aficionado, so I asked a friend and he said Ben Bova.

2.3 "Bova"

Probably not. But given how many sci-fi authors there are, without some knowledge of writers the developers are into it's as good a guess as any.

 

[MateuszS]

While I agree that xenophobes might be afraid of your genocidal moves ("what if we'll be next?"), I think that they shouldn't really care if they are far away or you kill someone not their type (they're avians, purged ones are blorgs).
However, the real problem lies elsewhere: the moment you start purging xenos everyone in galaxy knows that. This should be reworked - seriously empire XYZ would openly announce xenocide to others? I don't think so (unless the're stupid and/or Fantastic Purrifier).