"Fan Tech Tree" - Armor (WIDE! Pictures)

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Radu

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Some people create "Fan Art". Others "Fan Fiction".

Well, this is an Armor Section "Fan Tech Tree".

First Up - Germany

(Picture is wide! Scroll right to see all of it)

GER_tank.jpg

EDIT : Oops! Forgot something! Added "Sturmtiger" as replacement for "Brummbaer" as Bunkerbuster tank inside "Armored Engineer" Bns

EDIT2 : Repositioned "Sturmtiger" to correctly reflect its Tiger I chassis.
 
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Some people create "Fan Art". Others "Fan Fiction".

Well, this is an Armor Section "Fan Tech Tree".

First Up - Germany

(Picture is wide! Scroll right to see all of it)

View attachment 109887

Euh Radu, that looks pretty good!
Personally I would go even a bit further and add more variants of Pz III and IV.
And imo you forgot the Hetzer (quite a decent production number), PzKpfw 38(t), Panzer IV/70 and Ferdinand/Elefant also deserves a place somewhere.

This is one of the things I look forward of modding for HoI4.
 
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podcat

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dunno about that 75mm scout tank :D the VK1602 was initially supposed to have one, but it was changed to a 50mm because of :sanity: so I dont think it would be a logical route
 

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dunno about that 75mm scout tank :D the VK1602 was initially supposed to have one, but it was changed to a 50mm because of :sanity: so I dont think it would be a logical route

I agree:

This is what I gave it (picture from my own tank database:))
Light%20tank.jpg
 

Radu

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The 75mm gun on the "Last Hurrah" Leopard was inspired by the US M24 Chaffee. It's meant to represent the fact that 75/76mm guns were really the ceiling caliber that could practically be fielded on chassies that could be considered as "light" by the end of the war.
 

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The 75mm gun on the "Last Hurrah" Leopard was inspired by the US M24 Chaffee. It's meant to represent the fact that 75/76mm guns were really the ceiling caliber that could practically be fielded on chassies that could be considered as "light" by the end of the war.

You example only mentions upgunning to the 7.5cm, what type? 7.5cm KwK37 L/24? or 7.5cm KwK40 L/48? or 7.5cm KwK42 L/70? A world of difference between those 7.5cm guns.
The M24 'Chaffee' had the 75mm M6 L/39 gun, the 5cm KwK39 L/60 is a better gun imo.
 

Radu

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You example only mentions upgunning to the 7.5cm, what type? 7.5cm KwK37 L/24? or 7.5cm KwK40 L/48? or 7.5cm KwK42 L/70? A world of difference between those 7.5cm guns.
The M24 'Chaffee' had the 75mm M6 L/39 gun, the 5cm KwK39 L/60 is a better gun imo.

The medium velocity one, the L/48. That's stretching things, although to be honest the proposed chassis looks surprisingly heavy of a "light tank".

Perhaps that's why the design never really took off, as it's too heavy to be a light tank and too "light" to be a medium tank. I included it for the sake of "completeness", to round out the armory with a USA-like equivalent. (I'll try my best to include hypothetical examples for nations using others as inspiration, similarly to how I used the M22 Locust Airborne Tank as an inspiration when deciding to include the fictional Airborne Tank version of the Panzer II)

Although, like you pointed out, performance-wise the 5cm L/60 gun would be sufficient.
 

Radu

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Ok. Next up : USSR!

Again, be advised : really WIDE pictures.

EDIT : Added T-27 "Obsolescence Sink" as Armored Recon.

SOV_Tank.jpg
 

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TheRomanRuler

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I am all for modding, so go ahead and make one when game is released, i can`t judge before i have tried it, since i have not even tried game yet becouse in a way, game does not exist yet :p
 

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I don't know why you are missing (maybe I missed them?) in addition to what Thaegan said, Marder III, the various sIG 33 (on the Pz II, 38t, Pz III), StuH 42, Mobelwagen, Wirbelwind, Nashorn. Which I believe are important and not items on the pro-types list.

Sorry, I have long owned a copy of 'Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two' by Chamberlain & Doyle which I highly recommend as the most comprehensive and detailed book I have found on German fighting vehicles (it includes all fighting vehicles know to be used by German including captured)
 
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Radu

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The main reason has to do with the strategic scale of HOI. Germany might have been prolific in their tank designs in WWII, but many of those designs overlapped or had small differences between each other.

For the sake of simplicity I've omitted them.

Simply put, the screenshots represent a HOI IV tech tree adaptation, a simplification of period armories to fit in the scope of a grand-strategy game whose areas of focus are numerous and diverse between each other. It should not, and cannot, be a snapshot of a Military Encyclopedia. In fact, it is a simplification to what I feel are the basic, irreductible elements present in that era.

Specifically :

- The Nashorn/Elefant were ommitted due them sitting uncomfortably between the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (in the tech tree it's assumed to be the long-barrelled JgPz IV) and the Jagdpanther/Jagdtiger. The Jagdpanzer IV -> Jagdpanther -> Jagdtiger is a much more harmonious progression, similar to the USSR's SU-76 -> SU-85 -> SU-100 progression. I feel this is the single greatest omission in the tech tree thus far, but also completely necessary.

- For the Pz 38(t) and derived vehicles based on the Czech tank model. It's practically "captured" model. I feel it is *highly* presumptuous and inappropriate to include foreign equipment in a nation's tech tree. Thankfully, there are alternatives for all of the Czech vehicles and derivates. (As to the issue of captured equipment/lend-leased, that's a whole different can of worms, but one *certainly* not modeled by techs)

- Moebelwagen, Wirblewind are, at the game's scale, similar to the Ostwind and they were conflated.

- StuH 42 is another typical case of "there's no room" because of the clash between the diversity of the real-world German arsenal and the necessary "systemic consistency" that the Tech Tree (and the Template Upgrade system that rests upon it) need.

By that I mean that most likely the "Equipment" system will necessarily need to be simple and to the point, complex enough to capture reality but simple enough to make room for all the other systems in the game. I *highly* doubt that the Equipment system will be able to adapt from, say, "40 StuGs" to "20 StuGs and 20 StuHs", it just opens a can of worms, developmentally that is simply not worth wrestling with. As such, if the StuH would be in-game, it would need to replace the late-war StuGs. Well, where would those StuGs go? To the SP-AT Battalions? And what would they upgrade? Similar performance Marder IIs or JgPz IVs? Okay, and where StuG-comparable vehicles with their perfectly good 75mm guns go? To the scrap yard? See what I mean?

Including the StuH would create a "redundancy ripple" that would absolutely not serve the game and as I've said before, this is a Tech Tree, it has to play nice with the rest of the systems. Yes, even risking losing sight of some things due to its "grand strategic" point of view.

-The self-propelled 15cm Infantry Gun variants were omitted due to the low production numbers, negligible impact in the war and generally lackluster design (the other Assault guns fared better). Certainly far too lightly armored to serve in a Bunkerbusting capacity like the Brummbaer/AVRE. Now sure, I *could* have included these for what-ifs, but again, these are impractical designs. I could also have included the Neubaufahrzeug multi-turreted tank and further hypothetical Maus-like developments for it (just like I could have with the Soviet T-35), but I feel exploring those areas simply isn't worth it. The self-propelled 15cm Inf Guns simply aren't relevant.
 

Gamer_1745

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on the sIG 33 38t there was about 400. Too few?

'By that I mean that most likely the "Equipment" system will necessarily need to be simple and to the point, complex enough to capture reality but simple enough to make room for all the other systems in the game. I *highly* doubt that the Equipment system will be able to adapt from, say, "40 StuGs" to "20 StuGs and 20 StuHs", it just opens a can of worms, developmentally that is simply not worth wrestling with.'

I don't understand this. My understanding is that a tank battalion might have Pz II, Pz III & Pz IV all at the same time. It is just what was sent to the battalion when formed and replacement tanks to cover losses (I also understand I can send back to the pool types I no longer want in the battalion). If I produce 150 StuH 42 and send 5 StuH 42s to 30 PzGrenBns, why would this not work? They would add their firepower to the battalions.

It is true that there are many sub types for the Pz IV. I know podcat said things were modable, but I am not sure if we can easily have more than 4 sud types (I can think of a few ways to maybe cheat them in) and the Nashorn may not make the cut. When faced with heavy Soviet tanks they can be very useful! If you are producing the Tiger I the tank destroyer sub type would most closely be Elefant so why omit it?

I know that the base game will not have the 38t for Germany, but I know at least one mod will and maybe a DLC might so to write it off as '*highly* presumptuous and inappropriate to include foreign equipment in a nation's tech tree' a bit too much.

When we can have a sub-type like flak tank to a main tank type so the Pz IV flak sub-type should be able to progress (either though tech research or battle experience) why not Moebelwagen > Wirblewind > Ostwind? Each getting a bit better as time goes on.
 

scroggin

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You example only mentions upgunning to the 7.5cm, what type? 7.5cm KwK37 L/24? or 7.5cm KwK40 L/48? or 7.5cm KwK42 L/70? A world of difference between those 7.5cm guns.
The M24 'Chaffee' had the 75mm M6 L/39 gun, the 5cm KwK39 L/60 is a better gun imo.
remember that in the late war the most countries were able to use shaped charge ammunition in their guns, so velocity was not as important as calibre for armour penetration. Of course the high velocity gun still had the advantage of being flat shooting.
 

Radu

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on the sIG 33 38t there was about 400. Too few?

I don't understand this. My understanding is that a tank battalion might have Pz II, Pz III & Pz IV all at the same time. It is just what was sent to the battalion when formed and replacement tanks to cover losses (I also understand I can send back to the pool types I no longer want in the battalion). If I produce 150 StuH 42 and send 5 StuH 42s to 30 PzGrenBns, why would this not work? They would add their firepower to the battalions.

What I'm trying to say that is that a Battalion will transition from "old" to "new". I highly doubt techs will make it so "Oh look! Before we had vehicle A in the Battalion, but now B will join us!" (where vehicle B complements but does not replace vehicle A). Those StuH's will replace perfectly good late-war StuGs instead of complementing them, that's how the Equipment system will likely work. And the only instance where a StuH makes sense replaceing a StuG, is if that StuG is early war. That is, a 75mm low-velocity gun vehicle being replaced by a 105mm low-velocity gun vehicle.

But a StuH replacing a late-war StuG with its perfectly capable dual-purpose 7.5cm main gun? No.

Podcat can offer clarification, but I highly doubt Techs will not just say "X is old, Y is now" but also say "Oh look, X! Now Y will complement you!". If that happens, then that means that Battalion went from Type 1 to Type 2.

In other words, you won't be able to Motorize Infantry via Techs. If an Infantry Battalion didn't have "Trucks" at the start, a Tech won't give it to them. Only way is to change the Template from Infantry Bn to Mot Inf Bn.

I might be wrong, but I think this "dynamic equipment" system where a battalion gets additional (complement, not upgrade) equipment types via tech will not be implemented.

(Small note regarding the self-propelled 15cm Infantry Gun : Yes, too few and too little impact. It's a regimental gun on a chassis. Lack of other nations choosing to implement a self-propelled chassis for such a heavy regimental gun means that solution wasn't practical and like I said, I'm only willing to go so far chasing what ifs)

It is true that there are many sub types for the Pz IV. I know podcat said things were modable, but I am not sure if we can easily have more than 4 sud types (I can think of a few ways to maybe cheat them in) and the Nashorn may not make the cut. When faced with heavy Soviet tanks they can be very useful! If you are producing the Tiger I the tank destroyer sub type would most closely be Elefant so why omit it?

Actually, you're right. The Elefant is an outright precursor to the Jagdtiger. I stand corrected and will adjust the tree. EDIT : Scratch that. Elefant is omitted due to capability overlap with Jagdpanther

I know that the base game will not have the 38t for Germany, but I know at least one mod will and maybe a DLC might so to write it off as '*highly* presumptuous and inappropriate to include foreign equipment in a nation's tech tree' a bit too much.

Again, fact is the LT vz. 38 is a foreign design. The proper way to model that is via whatever "captured/lend lease equipment" mechanics HOI IV offers.

When we can have a sub-type like flak tank to a main tank type so the Pz IV flak sub-type should be able to progress (either though tech research or battle experience) why not Moebelwagen > Wirblewind > Ostwind? Each getting a bit better as time goes on.

For the simple reason that the differences are too small for the game's scale. All 3 vehicles are based on the same chassis, Panzer IV and the armament is similar, or at least equivalent. Finally the design differences between the 3 do not factor at this scale.
 

Radu

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And USA is here.

(WIDE Picture! Scroll right)

USA_Tank.jpg

Note : You will notice the USA employed turreted Assault Guns and Self-Propelled AT. What this means is that these vehicles are more expensive and less armored than their turretless equivalents, but the presence of a turret makes them much more suited for offensive operations.
 

Gamer_1745

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'Podcat can offer clarification, but I highly doubt Techs will not just say "X is old, Y is now" but also say "Oh look, X! Now Y will complement you!". If that happens, then that means that Battalion went from Type 1 to Type 2. '

Ok, here I think is where my understanding with the change from HOI3 to HOI4. A battalion is not a type 1 to type 2, but is a bucket that you fill with equipment. So each tank battalion will be unique once the war starts. Each will have a mix of tanks, different numbers due to battle loses, experience.

As you said I very well have misunderstood how it will work.
 

klucz13

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Actually, you're right. The Elefant is an outright precursor to the Jagdtiger. I stand corrected and will adjust the tree. EDIT : Scratch that. Elefant is omitted due to capability overlap with Jagdpanther

DD #2 indicates that each tank chassis will have separate support vehicles (self-propelled ART, AA, rocket & TD). So while Jagdpanther and Jadgtiger will be based on Panther and Tiger II respectively, Ferdinand will fit perfectly to Tiger I chassis (I know it actually was Porsche prototype, not Henschel Tiger, but it's close enough :))
 

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True enough, but that situation would mean that either the Jagdpanther replaces or is replaced by the elefant. And the truth of the matter is that it doesn't make sense for either the Jagdpanther or the Elefant to be scrapped, one in favor of the other. They have the same gun and similar armor in practice (Jagdpanther has thinner but sloped armor, Elefant has thicker but unsloped). At the grand-strategic level the differences are small (with a slight advantage to the Jagdpanther's mobility).

Compare to the JgPz IV/70 -> Jagdpanther (or Ferdinand) -> Jagdtiger progression. You have a clear improvement in both armament and armor.
 

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Radu,

I really think you are missing something. Where do you get 'JgPz IV/70 -> Jagdpanther (or Ferdinand) -> Jagdtiger progression' from? They won't progress in HOI4! The JgPz IV/70 will stay the JgPz IV/70. All that you build 1 or 1000 you will keep until destroyed. Unlike HOI3 they won't magically upgrade into something else. As covered in Hearts of Iron IV - Development Diary 2 - The Tools of War you very like be producing the JgPz IV/70, Elefant, Jagdpanther & Jagdtiger at the same time.
 

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Radu, I disagree - it makes perfect sense for Jadgpanther to replace Ferdinand. Same gun, comparable armor protection, but other than that JP excels at everything else - speed, vehicle complexity, production cost and production time.

Following history path, you should have Tiger tech much earlier than Panther, thus if wish so, also Ferdinand. Then it can be replaced by Jadgpanther in TD battalions, following later by Jadgtiger.