Pang Bingxun knows what he is talking about, whereas you are making assumptions based on your own ideas that don't reflect the reality of the game.
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If you load the paras on the air transport and try to give them an air assault mission with the unit interface (upper left corner) you can only select enemy territory. But if you use the map and right click a friendly province within range while the air transport is selected you actually can airdrop them into a friendly province.
Pictures:
This doesn't work:
But this does:
Result: paras relocated from Glasgow to London (which is friendly in this game)
How absolutely fantastic! Titan was right and really glad you did such a good job of presenting that. WOW! Paras suddenly take on a whole new roll!. It is time to priortize very long range TRA!
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With all due respect to Pang, that is an assumption on your part. He started off with supply flows like water. Then he changes to say "it takes the path of least resistance" with reference to a longer round-about route. That is what electricity does. Water does not take the path of least resistance, actually. Water dams up at obstacles until it rises enough to overflow all obstacles. Water tries to take the path of least resistance but - because it is stuck by gravity - it does not magically climb out of a river to flow down a nearby better river. At least not until it has been blocked enough to give it a rise to overcome that. Hence, water flow is the perfect analogy to describe game supply flow.
Anyway, I feel quite confident with my game experience and TC in deep Russia.
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There is a downside in any strategy.
Take a closer look at the logistics map. The supply goes from Berlin to Vladivostok, but the ESE goes from Rostock etc. to Vladivostok.
You are twisting my words. ESE does not flow on one route but on any route possible. Those are a lot of routes.
What you say here is contradicting truth and is therefore false.
I am not trying or intending to twist your words. Of course ESE (supplies) can flow along any route. The point I am making does not relate to Berlin-to-Rostock. I am discussing human player knowing where best to put his efforts to better ESE for his Wehrmacht deep in Russia. If the supplies are coming from Berlin why are you mentioning Rostock? Obviously supplies can flow across every map province, and supplies do flow all over the place if the army is close - like start of Barbarossa where the supplies will flow over every province in Poland because of the spread in destination points.
However, when you get a situation of your army deep enough, like waiting in southern Mongolia, all the supply will flow down one line of provinces only to the entry point of Mongolia, and then spread out to the final different destinations. But if TC overload is reached some of the extra needed supply flows - like water - in a river that has over flown its banks. There is not much the player can do about that because he cannot fix all of Russia.
The point of building railroads is to get the maximum supply down that identifiable route - which can be improved. Of course, when supply gets close to Mongolia it will branch off at a certain point and each branch finds its best final route to the different units throughout Mongolia - be it northern or southern Mongolia. This does not affect that all that supply - if it is not overloaded demand - flows from Berlin precisely thru ROSTOV in Russia (not sure why you mentioned Rostock next to Berlin). At this point the supply flow will branch to find the shortest route whether going to Baku, or a southern route across Russia to Mongolia, or a quite northern route if going over the top of Manchuria. As you approach the Far East coast it will branch again - south to Vladivostok or north depending where your units on the coast sit. And further, any supply to any unit off the railroad anywhere along the line will also have its supply trace leave the railroad at some point. But the point is - very a very long ways going from Berlin - it travels along 1 identifiable route - which can be improved. If ypu could not find the route, how would you know what/where to improve it. Back to indicriminantly scattering garrions around?
An easier example is supply to Burma because the different countries are more relatable than discussing the many options in Russia. The important fact is that all this variance in supply flow depending on where your troops are stationed has nothing to do with the fact that if you want good supply reaching Burma there is precisely ONE line thru the Caucasus and over Persia - until you get overload. Improve the very low infra provinces along that line where they exist in the Caucasus and thru Persia and you will delay overload occurring. Naturally, at India supply flows differently to all the various coastal guard units. But as regards supply going to Burma there is only ONE precise supply trace across India (a quite northern route) for the supply going to Burma. Knowing that, you now know where in India precisely to place GAR or CAV to eliminate partisans in that supply trace line. If India had any low infra, you would also know where to improve it. As it doesn’t, player should concentrate on improving the low infra provinces on supply trace to India back in the Caucasus and Persia. OF COURSE, if you overload TC, supply will flow alongside the intended supply line. So improve the main supply line – once it is found – and it will be what is used for all supplies as long as overload is not reached. The point is you can greatly mitigate against overload by improving the railroad at its correct places as regards Berlin supplies going to Burma.
And as regards going across Russia, there is a main northern route and a southern route depending how deep your units are in Russia. So there is very much a player can do by knowing where those lines exist when supply is flowing far across Russia. And, unfortunately, the supply trace to deep Russia - for any destination in Mongolia or Siberia or the Far East - goes right thru 20% infra Elton – ONE PROVINCE – and not around ELTON via three 60% infra provinces. Of course if you overlord then it will spill over across those 3 additional provinces. Would you rather improve ELTON so its infra can handle the demand and eliminate partisans with 1 GAR in ELTON, or would you like to place an extra 3 GAR because the poor infra in Elton has caused the supply to spill over out of the direct route and is now spilling across an additional 3 provinces skirting ELTON? Now you need 4 GAR total just to deal with getting supply past ELTON because the first supplies (if no overload) will always flow only thru ELTON (if headed for Mongolia, Vladivostok, or Kamchatka).
A screen shot would really help, but I won't do that for this thread. But it is kind of nice getting this discussion out of the way. The only relevant point as regards what player can do to improve things is to learn the precise line for a very long supply destination – and fix the poor infra and revolt risk along that line. That is the concept of a railway – to give the supplies a reasonable easy path to flow so TC is not overloaded because – when TC is overloaded – then supply flow runs helter skelter extra to the main line. Improve the line and you enhance avoiding overload.
The only real question is how to determine where is the line which is the only line that will be used as long as TC is not overloaded – so you can improve it, and run greater amounta amounts of supply along that route. I am discussing supply trace from Berlin to past the Ukraine at least and not discussing the variances in supply trace that occur as supply nears destination and then runs over all final provinces to reach the different destinations as per an army spread out along a front. To clarify - this is "the railroad to Russia and thru Russia", and not the helter skelter flow of supplies as it branches near the ends to different final destinations. And that railroad includes ELTON - the most serious obstacle in the long railroad line. SO, "YES" improving ELTON infra is greatly helping me getting more supply to my forces in Mongolia and also all of the Far East because - at Elton - there is still only one line for those far off destinations (unless you spill over because of overload).
It really is not that complicated. But to map it out in color for screen shots that are very self-evident you need access to Russia - meaning you conquered it. However, anybody can do it anywhere. You can trace the supply route from Berlin to Paris if you want, and mark it in color using the blue of province priortized in Supply Map Mode. And as long as there is no overload, supplies from Berlin to Paris will only flow in exactly ONE identifiable route. Now, if there was a low infra province between Berlin and Paris, you have the needed visual map reference to fix it. But as there isn't the discussion goes back to Russia with its very poor infra in many places and locating that very long railraod from Berlin. If player could not do this there woud be no chance at all to know which of the couple hundred provinces needs fixing. What is the point of any discussion of "railroads" if you can not trace out the routes on a map? Simply have a unit in Berlin and mission him to any point. And that is the route the supply will also flow - unless you are overloaded in which case the overload demand starts spilling thru adjacent provinces. It is not rocket science but the only logical choice as to how supply can trace across a continent.
But when you do this with an all conquerd Russia then you get some very interesting info and views.
However, when you get a situation of your army deep enough, like waiting in southern Mongolia, all the supply will flow down one line of provinces only to the entry point of Mongolia, and then spread out to the final different destinations. But if TC overload is reached some of the extra needed supply flows - like water - in a river that has over flown its banks. There is not much the player can do about that because he cannot fix all of Russia.
The point of building railroads is to get the maximum supply down that identifiable route - which can be improved. Of course, when supply gets close to Mongolia it will branch off at a certain point and each branch finds its best final route to the different units throughout Mongolia - be it northern or southern Mongolia. This does not affect that all that supply - if it is not overloaded demand - flows from Berlin precisely thru ROSTOV in Russia (not sure why you mentioned Rostock next to Berlin). At this point the supply flow will branch to find the shortest route whether going to Baku, or a southern route across Russia to Mongolia, or a quite northern route if going over the top of Manchuria. As you approach the Far East coast it will branch again - south to Vladivostok or north depending where your units on the coast sit. And further, any supply to any unit off the railroad anywhere along the line will also have its supply trace leave the railroad at some point. But the point is - very a very long ways going from Berlin - it travels along 1 identifiable route - which can be improved. If ypu could not find the route, how would you know what/where to improve it. Back to indicriminantly scattering garrions around?
An easier example is supply to Burma because the different countries are more relatable than discussing the many options in Russia. The important fact is that all this variance in supply flow depending on where your troops are stationed has nothing to do with the fact that if you want good supply reaching Burma there is precisely ONE line thru the Caucasus and over Persia - until you get overload. Improve the very low infra provinces along that line where they exist in the Caucasus and thru Persia and you will delay overload occurring. Naturally, at India supply flows differently to all the various coastal guard units. But as regards supply going to Burma there is only ONE precise supply trace across India (a quite northern route) for the supply going to Burma. Knowing that, you now know where in India precisely to place GAR or CAV to eliminate partisans in that supply trace line. If India had any low infra, you would also know where to improve it. As it doesn’t, player should concentrate on improving the low infra provinces on supply trace to India back in the Caucasus and Persia. OF COURSE, if you overload TC, supply will flow alongside the intended supply line. So improve the main supply line – once it is found – and it will be what is used for all supplies as long as overload is not reached. The point is you can greatly mitigate against overload by improving the railroad at its correct places as regards Berlin supplies going to Burma.
And as regards going across Russia, there is a main northern route and a southern route depending how deep your units are in Russia. So there is very much a player can do by knowing where those lines exist when supply is flowing far across Russia. And, unfortunately, the supply trace to deep Russia - for any destination in Mongolia or Siberia or the Far East - goes right thru 20% infra Elton – ONE PROVINCE – and not around ELTON via three 60% infra provinces. Of course if you overlord then it will spill over across those 3 additional provinces. Would you rather improve ELTON so its infra can handle the demand and eliminate partisans with 1 GAR in ELTON, or would you like to place an extra 3 GAR because the poor infra in Elton has caused the supply to spill over out of the direct route and is now spilling across an additional 3 provinces skirting ELTON? Now you need 4 GAR total just to deal with getting supply past ELTON because the first supplies (if no overload) will always flow only thru ELTON (if headed for Mongolia, Vladivostok, or Kamchatka).
A screen shot would really help, but I won't do that for this thread. But it is kind of nice getting this discussion out of the way. The only relevant point as regards what player can do to improve things is to learn the precise line for a very long supply destination – and fix the poor infra and revolt risk along that line. That is the concept of a railway – to give the supplies a reasonable easy path to flow so TC is not overloaded because – when TC is overloaded – then supply flow runs helter skelter extra to the main line. Improve the line and you enhance avoiding overload.
The only real question is how to determine where is the line which is the only line that will be used as long as TC is not overloaded – so you can improve it, and run greater amounta amounts of supply along that route. I am discussing supply trace from Berlin to past the Ukraine at least and not discussing the variances in supply trace that occur as supply nears destination and then runs over all final provinces to reach the different destinations as per an army spread out along a front. To clarify - this is "the railroad to Russia and thru Russia", and not the helter skelter flow of supplies as it branches near the ends to different final destinations. And that railroad includes ELTON - the most serious obstacle in the long railroad line. SO, "YES" improving ELTON infra is greatly helping me getting more supply to my forces in Mongolia and also all of the Far East because - at Elton - there is still only one line for those far off destinations (unless you spill over because of overload).
It really is not that complicated. But to map it out in color for screen shots that are very self-evident you need access to Russia - meaning you conquered it. However, anybody can do it anywhere. You can trace the supply route from Berlin to Paris if you want, and mark it in color using the blue of province priortized in Supply Map Mode. And as long as there is no overload, supplies from Berlin to Paris will only flow in exactly ONE identifiable route. Now, if there was a low infra province between Berlin and Paris, you have the needed visual map reference to fix it. But as there isn't the discussion goes back to Russia with its very poor infra in many places and locating that very long railraod from Berlin. If player could not do this there woud be no chance at all to know which of the couple hundred provinces needs fixing. What is the point of any discussion of "railroads" if you can not trace out the routes on a map? Simply have a unit in Berlin and mission him to any point. And that is the route the supply will also flow - unless you are overloaded in which case the overload demand starts spilling thru adjacent provinces. It is not rocket science but the only logical choice as to how supply can trace across a continent.
But when you do this with an all conquerd Russia then you get some very interesting info and views.
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It is an assumption based on the premise that Pang Bingxun has done extensive work for this game and therefore knows it (virtually) inside out. Whereas you appear to assume things before you even try it, as cjheigl has shown regarding your assumption of transport planes.
It does flow on every route. The is especilly true for the route Rostock-Vladivostok. Vladivostok can have ESE 100% while deep in russia ESE is down to 10%.
There is no need to improve elton. Chosing to build up a high infra route more in the north is much more comfortable because there already is an 60+% route.
Supplies donnot flow over the map. They are beamed directly from depot to unit. The rate at wich that happens is the ESE of a unit. The ESE of a unit is the ESE of of it procince times HQ modifier times Offensive Supplies modifier.
Yes, I am making an assumption regarding how to find the supply trace as regards a supply flow to a very distant point with my method of using INF in Berlin to trace its mission route and THEN ASSUMING that the supply will follow that same path.
Pang mentioned railroads then distanced himself from that term. Pang mentioned water as have others who know the game mechanics pretty well also. Pang suggested scattering GAR about and then changed his view to my idea of a line makes sense.
So, firstly, let's forget about Berlin to Paris supply because it is much too close and all happening across 100% infra. It was a very poor example for me to use. Let's return the discussion to what is relevant - trying to improve supply flow to the Wehrmacht in Russia - and can we determine a supply flow line so player can improve that supply line. Because if you cannot determine the line, it is quite obvious that any new infra placements would be a hit or miss thing since Russian is too big to fix other than fixing up specific "supply lines" - if such a concept exists.
And there is no better example than 20% low infra ELTON province. And a unit missioned in Berlin to go ANYWHERE in far Russia will ALWAYS travel thru Elton. Never does the unit take the 60% infra route of 3 provinces that skirt around Elton. The unit always goes the one province route thru Elton. And you are most correct that I am making an assumption that the supply flow to deep Russia will also go thru Elton - which is why I invested in improving Elton’s infra.
NEXT, as soon as the discussion touches on TC Overload the situation changes. TC Overload is NOT the point. The ONLY point is fixing up an identifiable supply line - if such a thing exists - so it can be improved to minimize TC Overload. Does that make sense?
If the discussion will focus on that issue, I'm interested. If not "BYE".
So, to Pang, can player determine an identifiable supply trace for supplies going into deep Russia as regards not TC overload situation? Is there any relevancy of unit in Berlin missioned to go into deep Russia as regards its trace route thru Elton? Because - if the supply flow when not TC overload actually flows the longer 3 province higher infra route - then fixing Elton is not so critical anymore. AS far as I am concerned, I can think of no better way than using a unit missioned in Berlin to determine the relevant supply route to identify what is reasonably fixable.
Pang mentioned railroads then distanced himself from that term. Pang mentioned water as have others who know the game mechanics pretty well also. Pang suggested scattering GAR about and then changed his view to my idea of a line makes sense.
So, firstly, let's forget about Berlin to Paris supply because it is much too close and all happening across 100% infra. It was a very poor example for me to use. Let's return the discussion to what is relevant - trying to improve supply flow to the Wehrmacht in Russia - and can we determine a supply flow line so player can improve that supply line. Because if you cannot determine the line, it is quite obvious that any new infra placements would be a hit or miss thing since Russian is too big to fix other than fixing up specific "supply lines" - if such a concept exists.
And there is no better example than 20% low infra ELTON province. And a unit missioned in Berlin to go ANYWHERE in far Russia will ALWAYS travel thru Elton. Never does the unit take the 60% infra route of 3 provinces that skirt around Elton. The unit always goes the one province route thru Elton. And you are most correct that I am making an assumption that the supply flow to deep Russia will also go thru Elton - which is why I invested in improving Elton’s infra.
NEXT, as soon as the discussion touches on TC Overload the situation changes. TC Overload is NOT the point. The ONLY point is fixing up an identifiable supply line - if such a thing exists - so it can be improved to minimize TC Overload. Does that make sense?
If the discussion will focus on that issue, I'm interested. If not "BYE".
So, to Pang, can player determine an identifiable supply trace for supplies going into deep Russia as regards not TC overload situation? Is there any relevancy of unit in Berlin missioned to go into deep Russia as regards its trace route thru Elton? Because - if the supply flow when not TC overload actually flows the longer 3 province higher infra route - then fixing Elton is not so critical anymore. AS far as I am concerned, I can think of no better way than using a unit missioned in Berlin to determine the relevant supply route to identify what is reasonably fixable.
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I understand what you are saying (but disagree with your tone, but that's another matter). Let me put it this way, where is your evidence for this? Pang Bingxun knows the game mechanics, he knows how the supply system works. I'm not sure if we are able to find out for ourselves unless we are C++ programmers, or is all the information we need in the misc file?
Why are you mentioning Rostock?
I can not believe the northern route serves the Mongolia region. Obviously you do not mean the real north which is nil infra. You mean the path from Berlin to over Manchukuo (which I also call the north route) This route actually has some 150% infra provinces.
EDIT: A unit from Berlin walking the north route [PASSES JUST NORTH OF ELTON] - leaving Elton as a very suspect case for probable improvement. This would be more indicated if high TC overload.
But when we head to Mongolia, the north route is traveled only a ways by an INF walking from Berlin; and then branches off. I am of the opinion that Russia is much too wide to be served efectively by one "North Route".
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I did not changed my view. I considered to use the method before but am asking the commensurability. A lot depends on circumstances.
I use the term railroad to decribe Infra and to desribe SR.
ESE uses every route. Ignore Elton. It makes (almost) no difference whether you take it or not. That is unless you consider the tc load from partissans in elton to be relevant.
The north route refers to the chain of ic provinces. If playing USSR i build this route up to 200% infra.
It has a port. ESE flows from every port to every port. Shore and port size are relevant for ESE.
To clarify, the North Route runs thru Omsk, and then Tomsk. It is the way to the Far East. Many high infra provinces there already. It goes north of Elton using the 60% infra provinces just north of Elton. I corrected that in above.
But the route to Mongolia must branch off and head south somewhere. I think it does that back in the Ukraine - according to unit missioned from Rostock or Berlin.
I am discussing this from a Germany to Russia point-of-view. If playing SU, I can certainly see the wisdom of your fixing up the North Route to 200% infra. AI was probably doing same as per the many high infra there.
But the route to Mongolia must branch off and head south somewhere. I think it does that back in the Ukraine - according to unit missioned from Rostock or Berlin.
I am discussing this from a Germany to Russia point-of-view. If playing SU, I can certainly see the wisdom of your fixing up the North Route to 200% infra. AI was probably doing same as per the many high infra there.
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The point of view does not matter. ESE flows from every province to every (adjacent) province.
I don't understand that completely. I do understand the problem of supplies trying to move from Berlin to my units in Mongolia. My assumption is that those supplies from Berlin will follow the shortest route to Mongolia - and not go to Tomsk, and then thun abruptly south.
However, as regards the direct line to Mongolia (use Bayan Rangor as location for 36 divisions) the ESE along that route is reducing significantly with every province further traveled past Elton. And this route does pass thru Elton as per moving unit trace from Berlin (or Rostock).
So I am a bit lost trying to find significance of the very good infra in Northern Route as regards my Wehrmacht in Mongolia. Of course I am increasing infra in all of southern Mongolia (because it is only 20%!).
EDIT: Currently ESE at Bayan Hongor is 7.99%. BAYAN HONGOR (now correct).
However, as regards the direct line to Mongolia (use Bayan Rangor as location for 36 divisions) the ESE along that route is reducing significantly with every province further traveled past Elton. And this route does pass thru Elton as per moving unit trace from Berlin (or Rostock).
So I am a bit lost trying to find significance of the very good infra in Northern Route as regards my Wehrmacht in Mongolia. Of course I am increasing infra in all of southern Mongolia (because it is only 20%!).
EDIT: Currently ESE at Bayan Hongor is 7.99%. BAYAN HONGOR (now correct).
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That assumptions basically wrong. It is more like water in a system like this:
The water starts in the capital. The capital is the source of ESE. It is a cylinder of a height and height = Infra. Each province is a cylinder like this and connected to adjecant provinces and the water can flow. If the height is below ESE water will splash over and that part of ESE is lost. So if a connection of provinces with height = 200%(and 0% revolt risk!) from Berlin to Chita, than Chita can have ESE 200+%. Than chita can serve as a source of ESE, the water can flow further from there.
Partisans work like evil little roboters that dig small holes in the cylinder. If this happens always a bit of water, a bit of ESE is lost. If that happens on 2-3 provinces this little harm. If this happen on 20-30 provinces in a line that is a huge problem.
THat is a good anology. But as Chita only borders on a 34% ESE province, that is the best it can have. However, it clearly does not have that. It only has 27%. That leaves a bit of unclarity about your hypotherical if next door was 200% ESE, Chita would have 200% ESE.
But - basically - it seems like you are saying there really is no actual flow of supplies. That concept is abstracted and the only determination is the provinicial ESE.
If that is true, we are still left with the challenge of improving "a line of higer infra provinces" that reaches to the troops so they will have higher ESE. But the major important part of your implication is "totally forget about unit tracing movement from Berlin" and instead try to find a line of higher infra provinces - that can go anywhere across Asia - and in that line find the lowest ESE province to improve infra so the whole line can increase to that minimum standard. Is that correct?
Of course this whole trace should also be partisan free. But importantly it is NOT a line from Berlin to the troops, but a completely different line that follows from highest ESE province to next highest ESE province going anywhere. This clearly means there would be nearly zero benefit to building up a 20% Elton when an existing 60% route runs right past it.
But - basically - it seems like you are saying there really is no actual flow of supplies. That concept is abstracted and the only determination is the provinicial ESE.
If that is true, we are still left with the challenge of improving "a line of higer infra provinces" that reaches to the troops so they will have higher ESE. But the major important part of your implication is "totally forget about unit tracing movement from Berlin" and instead try to find a line of higher infra provinces - that can go anywhere across Asia - and in that line find the lowest ESE province to improve infra so the whole line can increase to that minimum standard. Is that correct?
Of course this whole trace should also be partisan free. But importantly it is NOT a line from Berlin to the troops, but a completely different line that follows from highest ESE province to next highest ESE province going anywhere. This clearly means there would be nearly zero benefit to building up a 20% Elton when an existing 60% route runs right past it.
Yes.
The main concern is that infra can be build fast due to the terrain types plains and urban. The climate is relevant, too. You would prefer to avoid leaving Gar in subartic climate if circumstances allow that.
So, this means that player should look for best circuitous route to keep connecting to next best highest ESE province. Don't make the route too circuitous or it will involve a lot of garrisons as they are still needed "side-by-side" (with MP) because to get any province in Russia green you need the "spillover suppression effect" of a garrison on each side.
And then - wherever that circuitous route might be - start improving the lowest infra provinces so the whole route comes up to that minimum standard.
Now it makes sense to go to Tomosk and turn hard south for Mongolia destination. Basically I need to redeploy all my GAR back up to the first part of the Russian "Northern Route".
I have a couple viewpoints about this. I understand that the concept of supply is very difficult to game engine and further it was some time ago majorly improved. However, it is not so nice a concept for the player as imagining how a true supply line would run.
Aside from that personal preference, I am actually experiencing some evidence that the raising of Elton's infra from 20% to 35% has had a direct positive effect on the units now leaving their recuperation areas which were back at Karaganda (150% infra, 29.69% ESE) and Zhambyl (135& infra, 33.52% ESE) where they spent the summer repairing from the Winter 1941 offensive. Because Germany did hit zero MP, their recovery was delayed until that problem was rectified. Consequently, they were not ordered to move to their staging areas in Southern Mongolia until after the snow had come to that mountain range between them and Southern Mongolia. So, these CAV, ARM and MOTs have been travelling for over a month - in frozen terrain delaying their progress - getting to their staging areas. Their route is taking them into lower and lower infra provinces with ESE declining continuously each province further travelled. Right now they are at KHOBDO (25% infra, 12.29% ESE) having gotten over the mountains and out of the snow and doing their end run down into the desert of southern Mongolia.
However, in spite of all this continuous travelling the MOT's oil is at 360.8 of 361.2 possible and their supplies at 242.7 of 361.8 possible. In fact, their very prime condition after a month of continuous travel (and still moving) is nearly miraculous. However, the best adjacent province to pass the most possible ESE from Rostock is BIJSK (60% infra, 24.61 ESE). The total size of this moving army is 2 HQ, 35 MOT-2, 12 ARM-3, 12 CAV-4 and 3 MTN-2 and has been creating a fairly steady TC load of 1280/1045.
Somehow, I am having difficulty understanding their current success (and excellent condition) based only on the fact of the neighboring province of BIJSK is passing 24.61% ESE. When I compare this current travel to their earlier travel coming back from deeper Russia after the annexation of SU, there are huge differences. Yet they were travelling back in the much better INFRA and ESE provinces returning on the Northern Russia Route - the chain of high IC provinces. Now - that they are travelling on the much lower INFRA and ESE route to Mongolia - they are maintaining fantastic condition. Of course, the route to Mongolia - done as per "supply trace" which I believed existed - does pass thru Elton, and Elton now has had its infra nearly doubled. Somehow, I am not feeling I wasted my efforts improving Elton.
Of course, the above is not an accurate test; I'm too busy trapping those 50 UK divisions in Egypt; and the UK Spitfires simply don't know when to quit. Maybe it is just that I would rather believe in the much nicer game concept of a "real supply route" than abstract my efforts to looking at ESE in provinces a thousand km from anywhere near where my imaginary supplies would flow? Still, that army moving into Mongolia seems incredibly healthy considering that there are nil GAR placed anywhere in Russia where Pang's explanation would lead me to redeploy GAR to. But there is a solid line of green provinces along the route thru Elton where I would like to wish the supplies are coming thru.
Frankly, I am having a bit of a hard time believing this. Not the ESE in the province as regards how that benefits units stationed there. I am only discussing the "abstraction of supplies that supposedly don't exist" - as I understand Pang's explanation of a "chain of high IC provinces"; and why I should move my GAR to reduce revolt risk in the circuitous high ESE route from Rostock to Mongolia (going thru Tomsk). It seems a lot easier for me to understand my unit’s current excellent condition after traveling a month and having nearly full gas tanks if I give credit to the supposedly useless “green line” I created thru Elton – which definitely is not the highest ESE route.
EDIT: To clarify, currently the army has been and is travelling on a "totally green route". When they were in deeper Russia back at annexation time no GAR line had extended to reach them there, and they would not gain supplies or oil appreciably even when stopped in very high ESE provinces. And, as soon as they started moving, they would lose their oil. But now, travelling on what I thought was the correct "railroad supply line" to prepare, they seem fantastic.
And then - wherever that circuitous route might be - start improving the lowest infra provinces so the whole route comes up to that minimum standard.
Now it makes sense to go to Tomosk and turn hard south for Mongolia destination. Basically I need to redeploy all my GAR back up to the first part of the Russian "Northern Route".
I have a couple viewpoints about this. I understand that the concept of supply is very difficult to game engine and further it was some time ago majorly improved. However, it is not so nice a concept for the player as imagining how a true supply line would run.
Aside from that personal preference, I am actually experiencing some evidence that the raising of Elton's infra from 20% to 35% has had a direct positive effect on the units now leaving their recuperation areas which were back at Karaganda (150% infra, 29.69% ESE) and Zhambyl (135& infra, 33.52% ESE) where they spent the summer repairing from the Winter 1941 offensive. Because Germany did hit zero MP, their recovery was delayed until that problem was rectified. Consequently, they were not ordered to move to their staging areas in Southern Mongolia until after the snow had come to that mountain range between them and Southern Mongolia. So, these CAV, ARM and MOTs have been travelling for over a month - in frozen terrain delaying their progress - getting to their staging areas. Their route is taking them into lower and lower infra provinces with ESE declining continuously each province further travelled. Right now they are at KHOBDO (25% infra, 12.29% ESE) having gotten over the mountains and out of the snow and doing their end run down into the desert of southern Mongolia.
However, in spite of all this continuous travelling the MOT's oil is at 360.8 of 361.2 possible and their supplies at 242.7 of 361.8 possible. In fact, their very prime condition after a month of continuous travel (and still moving) is nearly miraculous. However, the best adjacent province to pass the most possible ESE from Rostock is BIJSK (60% infra, 24.61 ESE). The total size of this moving army is 2 HQ, 35 MOT-2, 12 ARM-3, 12 CAV-4 and 3 MTN-2 and has been creating a fairly steady TC load of 1280/1045.
Somehow, I am having difficulty understanding their current success (and excellent condition) based only on the fact of the neighboring province of BIJSK is passing 24.61% ESE. When I compare this current travel to their earlier travel coming back from deeper Russia after the annexation of SU, there are huge differences. Yet they were travelling back in the much better INFRA and ESE provinces returning on the Northern Russia Route - the chain of high IC provinces. Now - that they are travelling on the much lower INFRA and ESE route to Mongolia - they are maintaining fantastic condition. Of course, the route to Mongolia - done as per "supply trace" which I believed existed - does pass thru Elton, and Elton now has had its infra nearly doubled. Somehow, I am not feeling I wasted my efforts improving Elton.
Of course, the above is not an accurate test; I'm too busy trapping those 50 UK divisions in Egypt; and the UK Spitfires simply don't know when to quit. Maybe it is just that I would rather believe in the much nicer game concept of a "real supply route" than abstract my efforts to looking at ESE in provinces a thousand km from anywhere near where my imaginary supplies would flow? Still, that army moving into Mongolia seems incredibly healthy considering that there are nil GAR placed anywhere in Russia where Pang's explanation would lead me to redeploy GAR to. But there is a solid line of green provinces along the route thru Elton where I would like to wish the supplies are coming thru.
Frankly, I am having a bit of a hard time believing this. Not the ESE in the province as regards how that benefits units stationed there. I am only discussing the "abstraction of supplies that supposedly don't exist" - as I understand Pang's explanation of a "chain of high IC provinces"; and why I should move my GAR to reduce revolt risk in the circuitous high ESE route from Rostock to Mongolia (going thru Tomsk). It seems a lot easier for me to understand my unit’s current excellent condition after traveling a month and having nearly full gas tanks if I give credit to the supposedly useless “green line” I created thru Elton – which definitely is not the highest ESE route.
EDIT: To clarify, currently the army has been and is travelling on a "totally green route". When they were in deeper Russia back at annexation time no GAR line had extended to reach them there, and they would not gain supplies or oil appreciably even when stopped in very high ESE provinces. And, as soon as they started moving, they would lose their oil. But now, travelling on what I thought was the correct "railroad supply line" to prepare, they seem fantastic.
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You may want to know that there is something i call pumping effect. There are 3 provinces A connects to B and B connects to C. A has high Infra and high ESE. B is low Infra. If Infra in C is increased this will increase ESE in B.
I find the concept to be rather simple. Build good roads and railroad and the supply will "flow" trough this route.
I confirm that increasing Infra in Elton does help, especially if your Gar are optimized to met that.