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I wouldn't say epidemics alone caused the fall, but they greatly strained the socio-economic system of the empire, requiring rapid adaptation. Generally, the empire did pretty well, since it survived the 2nd-3rd century epidemics intact,

Barely. The epidemics eliminated the infrastructure, the economic prosperity, etc. of the empire. 1/4 - 1/3 of the Roman population was killed during each epidemic. They put the Mediterranean into a slump that wouldn't end for centuries, and permanently pushed the balance of European power North. Furthermore, the epidemics drastically increased Rome's reliance on the barbarians.
 

driftwood

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The fourth century, according to most research, was an extremely prosperous time across the entire empire. It was also a period that saw more use of barbarians, but hardly a dependence on them, and certainly what dependence there was didn't seem to do any harm.

Before it's raised against me :), I'd like to also point out that Gothic revolts linked to Adrianople were due more to the general incompetence of Valens' administration during the entire affair than to a fundamental weakness caused by reliance on Goths.

Oh, back to the economics for a moment, the northwards shift of the European economy did not gain critical mass for centuries after the fall of the western empire. Long after Romulus Augustulus, southern France and Italy were the wealthiest regions of the West, and both were of middling wealth compared to Africa and the East.

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The fourth century, according to most research, was an extremely prosperous time across the entire empire.

I'd like to see a source for that. Most papers I've read show decline in the standards of living for lands in the former Roman Empire starting during the 2nd century, which didn't pick up 'till the 8th century.

It was also a period that saw more use of barbarians, but hardly a dependence on them, and certainly what dependence there was didn't seem to do any harm.

Huh? Barbarians given positions of power consistently betrayed the empire.

Oh, back to the economics for a moment, the northwards shift of the European economy did not gain critical mass for centuries after the fall of the western empire. Long after Romulus Augustulus, southern France and Italy were the wealthiest regions of the West, and both were of middling wealth compared to Africa and the East.

True enough, but Africa and the East were in sharp decline too. That's the major reason why the Arab invasions were so successful.
 

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Huh? Barbarians given positions of power consistently betrayed the empire.

Not quite true. Barbarians in positions of power consistently betrayed the emperors. None of them wanted to destroy the Empire. Some of them were acting out of a desire to become kingmaker, some acted out of desire for a homeland, and some acted because of the extreme stupidity of the Emperors at this time. I would point out that many of the barbarian uprisings were prompted by colossal Roman stupidity and prejudice against them. Many were denied food, extorted, reduced to begging, and driven to the point where rebellion was the only hope they had left.

True enough, but Africa and the East were in sharp decline too. That's the major reason why the Arab invasions were so successful.

Two different eras...
The Arab invasions were so successful because Persia and the Empire had spent the last few years beating the snot out of eachother under Chosroes and Heraclius. Although the Empire won, it was sorely weakened and its Emperor essentially broke himself under the stress. Persia was in even worse shape, having been ransacked just as badly and also as the loser in this war. In short, neither side was prepared to fight anyone at that point and certainly never expected to be fighting the previously apathetic Arabians.
 
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Originally posted by driftwood
Then this welfare system incrementally developed over 500 years, from the Gracchi (roughly ... I believe the public grain management is much older, but that's when universal grain subsidies became regular and substantial)
Not sure if this is quite fair. The Gracchi have been given a Marxist spin but in certain ways they were conservative in their outlook, if not their methods. Their main concern was land reform, to break up the slave-run mega-estates controlled by a wealthy elite and distribute small holdings to idle veterans. This was in line with traditional notions of the Roman citizen-republic based on free small farmers. Unfortunately for the Gracchi, this vision was outdated and the road to empire was already well on its way. I would tend to view the giant welfare state of the Empire as a product of the logical outgrowth of those social forces opposing the Gracchi.
 

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Originally posted by driftwood
Aetius - Gibbon was brilliant, but many of his ideas have been discredited by modern scholarship. So it's dangerous to read him, because you'll be completely convinced by incorrect arguments. :)

So what should I read instead to get the right picture?
 

driftwood

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Aetius - Averil Cameron is pretty good, she has a couple fairly compact (100-300 page) books on Late Antiquity, which is approximately the title. (Mediterranean World in Late Antiquity, Late Antiquity, How Antiquity got Late).

I'd like to see a source for that. Most papers I've read show decline in the standards of living for lands in the former Roman Empire starting during the 2nd century, which didn't pick up 'till the 8th century.

I'd have to dig around for exact citations, but try the Cambridge Ancient History Volumes XIII and XIV (published 1999 and 2001 respectively). Also, the essays collected in the Transformations of the Roman World series, edited by F. Pohl, from the ongoing series of symposia of the same name. It's an uneven series, but volume I in particular is a good read. Pirenne and the catastrophe thesis are still influential, but are not taken as the most likely explanation.

Not quite true. Barbarians in positions of power consistently betrayed the emperors ...

And when barbarian generals rebelled, it was often barbarian generals that put them back in their place. There was a really large number of Franks and other Germans who rose to the 2nd and 1st tier of military command from the time of Constantine I, and the vast majority of them were loyal to the Roman system. Those who did rebel, as Priam kind of pointed out, did so for the same petty political reasons as the Romans who rebelled. Especially after a generation of living and serving within the Empire, the "barbarians" and Romans at the upper echelon were pretty indistinguishable.

The early/mid Merovingian period was reasonably prosperous, given the low level that the region was starting from. Try Patrick Geary's Before France and Germany, which has the added bonus of being under 200 pages.

Did I forget anything? Keynes, I didn't mean to imply that the Gracchi were legislating for a 20th century welfare system, simply that in retrospect the grain reforms that were one of their legacies proved to be the first major step towards the 4th century welfare system (which, again, shouldn't be compared with a 20th century welfare system).

driftwood
 

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IWW Grunt
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Points taken regarding the barbarians.

Two different eras...

Not at all. The bubonic plague hit Rome in the middle of the 6th century, and the Arabs conquered Syria less than a century later.

The Arab invasions were so successful because Persia and the Empire had spent the last few years beating the snot out of eachother under Chosroes and Heraclius. Although the Empire won, it was sorely weakened and its Emperor essentially broke himself under the stress. Persia was in even worse shape, having been ransacked just as badly and also as the loser in this war. In short, neither side was prepared to fight anyone at that point and certainly never expected to be fighting the previously apathetic Arabians.

That's certainly part of the story, but not the whole story.

Consider that the world was facing incredible stresses due to the Bubonic plague. In populations smaller than the threshold to sustain the diesease, we see epidemics constantly reoccuring during every contact. Rome, quite simply, no longer had the capacity to fight off the Arabs (or other barbarians).

I'd have to dig around for exact citations, but try the Cambridge Ancient History Volumes XIII and XIV (published 1999 and 2001 respectively). Also, the essays collected in the Transformations of the Roman World series, edited by F. Pohl, from the ongoing series of symposia of the same name. It's an uneven series, but volume I in particular is a good read. Pirenne and the catastrophe thesis are still influential, but are not taken as the most likely explanation.

I'd wager that your sources were saying that compared to the 3rd century, the 4th was prosperous, which is true enough. Rome was no longer facing the worst of the epidemics, the disastrous civil wars and military uprsisings (most of which due to inability to pay soldiers, which was due to the economic ravages of the diseases).

But a huge portion of the population had been eliminated. The diseases continued to ravage the land, albeit at a smaller scale. One thing to note is that Diocletan passed laws in the end of the 3rd centrury and beginning of the 4th century to prevent people from abandoning their land; that's not a good indication of economic prosperity. The imperial fisc and central authority continually diminished. The great trading centers of the Mediteranean were hit the hardest.

IIRC, some 10,000 people died daily for 4 straight months in Constantinople alone during the bubonic plague of the 6th century.

The impact of 3 epidemics cannot be overstated.
 
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driftwood

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All the current scholarship stresses above and beyond all else that it's simply impossible to authoritatively state whether populations and economies rose or shrank significantly during the later empire. The sources arguing for massive deaths and economic catastrophe are fairly untrustworthy, while the evidence arguing against the deaths and depressions is too sketchy to be convincing either.

For instance, Whittaker and Garnsey (the authors of one of the essays on the 4th century rural economy) state that for all the sources claiming that land was going fallow and there were not enough people, there is a great deal of archaeological evidence for an expansion in the number of farms at both the medium and large levels (the former apparently reflecting the reemergence of villages). Britain emerged during this period as a major corn exporter and North Africa shows a dramatic increase in the number of villas.

Obviously no direct comparison can be made between the late 4th century and the late 1st century. The societies, even if there had been no disease or wars, was massively different. But the evidence we do have argues for ample prosperity in the 4th century and beyond. In the mid-6th century and early-7th century, even after the disastrous bubonic plague, the emperors had enough armies to finish the war in Italy, pacify reconquered Africa, fight off Slavic and Avar invaders across the Danube, and engage in a 30 year war of total destruction against a Persian army which initially was surely a match for the army the Arabs would soon provide.

The evidence for dislocation caused by the plague is there to see (see Averil Cameron's Procopius and the 6th Century, for example, on how much of his invective against tyranny now appears to be his reaction against the measures necessitated by plague (of course, he drew no connection between the plague and its policy consequences).

As Goffart, I believe, said, the world would long since have been wiped clean if people died as often as the sources said. This doesn't mean that the plagues didn't happen or weren't catastrophic events (particularly the 6th century one). However, these societies adapted and survived. You can argue that plague added another stress to a difficult situation for the empire (in any century - viewed from one point of view, the empire was always on the brink of death), but you can't prove it as the major and determinative source of later downfall.

driftwood