Fair AI Starting Fleets

[UncleGamer]

So I have been playing a while and just on Normal difficulty, I have noticed that AI starting fleets are insanely strong.

I will look at intel on the enemy and it will state they are "equivalent:" to my civilization. This to me would seem to indicate close to the same. Yet when I have to fight them they are always vastly superior in fleet strength.

This got worse yesterday when I was in a game that saw an enemy undergo massive internal wars and eventually be split into three different groups, all at war with each other. The one segment that was blocking me the most was listed as inferior in fleet capacity and strength. SO I declared war intent to opening up some space lanes.

My fleet at the time was made up of two 2500 strength fleets and I attacked on two planets at once. The enemy fielded a 2K fleet for each of my incursions to intercept AND a 6K fleet to attack my home system. THIS IS INFERIOR?

This nation had a single habitable world and 4 worlds for mining, they were mostly research. I beat the dual 2K fleets, took out all his wormhole generators and then began to whittle down his 6K fleet. I had it down to 4K and was rebuilding ships as fast as I could to finish the job.

Suddenly he arrives with a 3K fleet, the size alone was nuts but they were all cruisers and destroyers. I have more resources and likely more stockpiles as I had not just been through a couple of wars before starting this like he had. Yet with a single shipyard he build a larger fleet faster than I could with 3 ship yards.

Is this being worked on, creating an AI system that does not so openly CHEAT or at least not to such a ridiculous level?

 

[Dan_Daniel2000]

Do you play on a higher difficulty than normal? If yes, the AI will get insane bonuses to their resource Output.

 

[The Founder]

My fleet at the time was made up of two 2500 strength fleets and I attacked on two planets at once. The enemy fielded a 2K fleet for each of my incursions to intercept AND a 6K fleet to attack my home system. THIS IS INFERIOR?

Could it be you forgot thier allies? Because that should really not be possible.
In particular, the AI has a "one track" mind. It always has a single doomstack. With reinforcements trickling in. Having 3 Fleets? Impossible. Must have been defensive allies.

 

[Knightroglycerine]

This is a known problem in 4x games where the difficulty is regulated by giving the AI flat bonuses at start to compensate for the skill difference between AI and human player. It makes the early game very though, but once you are past that, the game becomes easy again. This is constricting the play-styles of people who play at high difficulties, as it limits the number of viable opening moves. It can easily be solved by giving the AI a bonus that gradually increases during the game. In civilizations, there is the popular "smoother difficulties" mod to do this.

 

[UncleGamer]

I play with the difficulty and aggression un-modified, set to Normal.

 

[The Founder]

I play with the difficulty and aggression un-modified, set to Normal.

That and the use of 3 Fleets makes you story incredibly unlikely. Most likely you missed something.

If there is a 2 defense pacts, the story would add up nicely:
Thier fleet is around 2k.
Thier 1st ally fleet is around 2k.
Thier 2nd ally fleet is 6k.

It is not uncommon to overlook Defense pacts, guarantees of Independance or Federations when declaring war. A screenshoot of thier diplomacy screen (with tooltip for the War in question) would help to nail it down.

 

[terrycloth]

Could it be you forgot thier allies? Because that should really not be possible.
In particular, the AI has a "one track" mind. It always has a single doomstack. With reinforcements trickling in. Having 3 Fleets? Impossible. Must have been defensive allies.

I've seen the AI split up its fleet into roughly equal sections before. I've also seen ridiculously huge starting fleets for AIs. I don't think it's cheating, though, it just has a sort of one-track mind and doesn't spend as much on improving its economy, so early on it tends to have a larger fleet.

The AI also rushes ship construction tech which, as a side effect, gives it a larger fleet cap.

 

[The Founder]

I don't think it's cheating, though, it just has a sort of one-track mind and doesn't spend as much on improving its economy, so early on it tends to have a larger fleet.

Actually even on normal the AI get's considerable bonus to Fleet Cap and Fleet Maintenance.

But as was said, this is a nessesary tradeoff:
The Admiral goes into combat against a foe he did not choose.
With no concept of strategic planning, longterm goals or the like.
With ships he did not design and can not redesign.
With planets to defend. But no ability to order ships or troops from said planets (that is the local governors choice).

 

[UncleGamer]

Thanks for the headsup, maybe I did miss something.

 

[Arkangilos]

Maybe it was an advanced start?

 

[Drakonn]

Actually even on normal the AI get's considerable bonus to Fleet Cap and Fleet Maintenance.

Really should be lessened, removed, or at least have a hard cap on the Fleet for AI and player alike. I've seen them go over it far too easily. Not to mention I've had the exact same problem with the "Equivalent" power ratings. It's far, far too wide. They really need to shrink it. It's like the numbers state what you could have but may not currently be at.

 

[The Founder]

Really should be lessened, removed, or at least have a hard cap on the Fleet for AI and player alike. I've seen them go over it far too easily. Not to mention I've had the exact same problem with the "Equivalent" power ratings. It's far, far too wide. They really need to shrink it. It's like the numbers state what you could have but may not currently be at.

As far as I can tell, they go by actually values of Fleet strenght (with equal being something around +/-10% or +/-20% for a precise equal).

Note that Naval Capacit, Technology and Overall is explicitly a seperate value. The naval cap in particular can show you your potential.

 

[Robotkiller]

You can attach your save file to a post and we would be able to see what's going on.

 

[Drakonn]

As far as I can tell, they go by actually values of Fleet strenght (with equal being something around +/-10% or +/-20% for a precise equal).

Note that Naval Capacit, Technology and Overall is explicitly a seperate value. The naval cap in particular can show you your potential.

Still exists a problem of all of them being "Equivalent" and still getting trounced by a fleet with, say, 5k when mine is only 2k.

 

[Emperor-Soul]

Spaceports also count towards that "Equivalent" which could be miss leading.

 

[Bob_the_Insane]

Nothing quite like starting a new game to find an fanatical purifier "Advanced Start" AI right next door..

 

[indika_tates]

I discovered an AI next to me just at the start of the game. It has three ships, like everyone. I don't know if later it gets bonuses or not but at the start we had the same conditions.

 

[Thygrrr]

I think it could be better to give AI empires a cumulative growth bonus, e.g. +0.3% per year to some of their stats, after 100 years it being +30%. This could then be encapsulated in a "slider" setting from -1% to +1% or so. Then also add a slider for a "head start" that's just a flat percentage over the player start's initial resources, and a military "head start" slider.

 

[The Founder]

Still exists a problem of all of them being "Equivalent" and still getting trounced by a fleet with, say, 5k when mine is only 2k.

I would need to see that in action to beleive it. I have not yet.
Also you never want a "Equivalent" fight. You always want it as unfair to your advantage as possible.

Spaceports also count towards that "Equivalent" which could be miss leading.

I am pretty sure they do not. It is called Fleet Power. Not Military Power.

I discovered an AI next to me just at the start of the game. It has three ships, like everyone. I don't know if later it gets bonuses or not but at the start we had the same conditions.

Indeed they all start the same. But AI - even on normal - get's massive subsidization to Naval Cap and Maintenance Cost.

 

[Drakonn]

Also you never want a "Equivalent" fight. You always want it as unfair to your advantage as possible.

Not always an option and if it's "Equivalent" across the board then I'm expecting an even fight.