Failed Explorers

[Camara]

What bz249 is mentioning is one thing, but there there are two things related, as in "suggestions" it might have happened.

1.
In the South Atlantic the winds are anti-clockwise which means in order to go to the Cape it is much easier to go to the west if you're coming from Europe. You will catch up the winds and it will be easy. Close to the shore the winds are always against you as you go down Africa.
The first recorded use of this current knowledge in the South Atlantic was Vasco da Gama's voyage in 1498, remember Bartolomeu Dias' was 1488. Given this 10 year gap there is the suggestion that Portugal may have done exploratory voyages to check this possible route to India. Vasco da Gama's was a mission set up for commerce not exploration so they were sure they would do commerce and not find any obstacle. The armada had caravels for scouting but some suggest they had prior knowledge of what they would encounter.
If these exploratory voyages did happen they could easily have discovered Brazil as it's along the current route, this is how "officialy" Pedro Álvares Cabral discovered Brazil.
So this is only a suggestion, linking two ifs.

2.
Continuing with the South Atlantic currents, there is another way Portugal might have discovered South America after the 1460s. The ships that went to the Gulf of Guinea returned to Portugal by using the main winds, which as we have seen blow them to the west. They then go to the Azores and return to Portugal. It is again suggested the many voyages Portugal had when returning from the Gulf of Guinea could have led to the discovery of the Americas.
Again a if.

 

[Geriander]

What bz249 is mentioning is one thing, but there there are two things related, as in "suggestions" it might have happened.

1.
In the South Atlantic the winds are anti-clockwise which means in order to go to the Cape it is much easier to go to the west if you're coming from Europe. You will catch up the winds and it will be easy. Close to the shore the winds are always against you as you go down Africa.
The first recorded use of this current knowledge in the South Atlantic was Vasco da Gama's voyage in 1498, remember Bartolomeu Dias' was 1488. Given this 10 year gap there is the suggestion that Portugal may have done exploratory voyages to check this possible route to India. Vasco da Gama's was a mission set up for commerce not exploration so they were sure they would do commerce and not find any obstacle. The armada had caravels for scouting but some suggest they had prior knowledge of what they would encounter.
If these exploratory voyages did happen they could easily have discovered Brazil as it's along the current route, this is how "officialy" Pedro Álvares Cabral discovered Brazil.
So this is only a suggestion, linking two ifs.

2.
Continuing with the South Atlantic currents, there is another way Portugal might have discovered South America after the 1460s. The ships that went to the Gulf of Guinea returned to Portugal by using the main winds, which as we have seen blow them to the west. They then go to the Azores and return to Portugal. It is again suggested the many voyages Portugal had when returning from the Gulf of Guinea could have led to the discovery of the Americas.
Again a if.

The lack of surviving documents supporting such a discovery and the lack of an impact on the direction of Portugese exploration policy, make me doubt that this potential discovery happened.

 

[Camara]

The lack of surviving documents supporting such a discovery and the lack of an impact on the direction of Portugese exploration policy, make me doubt that this potential discovery happened.

if they existed the documents were probably destroyed in the 1755 Earthquake as Casa da Índia was destroyed.
Likely we have almost no document of other portuguese explorations. The Cantino planisphere for example only is known because it was actually copied by an italian spy, the portuguese original is nowhere to be found.

On the direction of the exploration policy it wouldn't move a inch just because of the discovery of Brazil.
The goal was India, Brazil was an afterthough for Portugal until later in the XVIth century. The money was on the asian trade, apart from wood at first Brazil had nothing interesting.
Also due to the Treaty of Tordesillas most of things in the west were spanish, Portugal had no interest in talking about lands to the west.
After Vasco da Gama returns from India in triumph in 1498 "suddenly" Portugal had not 1, not 2 but 3 voyages/discoveries to the west. Lavrador in 1499/1500 to Greenland, Gaspar Corte Real in 1500 to Greenland and in 1501 to Newfoundland and Pedro Álvares Cabral in 1500 "to" Brazil.
And Duarte Pacheco Pereira says the king had sent him to explore the "landmass to the southwest that has many adjacent islands" in 1498, 2 years before Cabral, and I don't doubt Duarte Pacheco Pereira that had no reason to lie and had much greater achievements to brag about.

We have no direct evidence for it but it is possible it happened.
All we have is plausability and hints, not concrete evidence.

 

[Geriander]

if they existed the documents were probably destroyed in the 1755 Earthquake as Casa da Índia was destroyed.
Likely we have almost no document of other portuguese explorations. The Cantino planisphere for example only is known because it was actually copied by an italian spy, the portuguese original is nowhere to be found.

On the direction of the exploration policy it wouldn't move a inch just because of the discovery of Brazil.
The goal was India, Brazil was an afterthough for Portugal until later in the XVIth century. The money was on the asian trade, apart from wood at first Brazil had nothing interesting.
Also due to the Treaty of Tordesillas most of things in the west were spanish, Portugal had no interest in talking about lands to the west.
After Vasco da Gama returns from India in triumph in 1498 "suddenly" Portugal had not 1, not 2 but 3 voyages/discoveries to the west. Lavrador in 1499/1500 to Greenland, Gaspar Corte Real in 1500 to Greenland and in 1501 to Newfoundland and Pedro Álvares Cabral in 1500 "to" Brazil.
And Duarte Pacheco Pereira says the king had sent him to explore the "landmass to the southwest that has many adjacent islands" in 1498, 2 years before Cabral, and I don't doubt Duarte Pacheco Pereira that had no reason to lie and had much greater achievements to brag about.

We have no direct evidence for it but it is possible it happened.
All we have is plausability and hints, not concrete evidence.

Wouldn’t the Portugese have published such evidence at the time to argue against the Treaty of Tordesillas? By 1755 there would certainly have been worthwhile to go out bragging that they found America first. Regarding direction of exploration, with Colombus coming to the Portugese first with the offer to sail west to reach India, wouldn’t knowlege of land to the east make the Portugese more likely to sponsor him?

 

[Camara]

Wouldn’t the Portugese have published such evidence at the time to argue against the Treaty of Tordesillas? By 1755 there would certainly have been worthwhile to go out bragging that they found America first. Regarding direction of exploration, with Colombus coming to the Portugese first with the offer to sail west to reach India, wouldn’t knowlege of land to the east make the Portugese more likely to sponsor him?

Actually the spanish delegation in Tordesillas suspected Portugal was hidding something, also because of the changes Portugal forced, the 370 leagues west of Cape Verde instead of the papal 100 leagues west of Azores. Some historians use this hint to suggest Portugal knew about Brazil before the Treaty.

By 1755 no one would know that Portugal had discovered America first if it was kept secret, it was hiding in piles of paper and no one had a reason to look at them. Many things are discovered nowadays in the archives (I'm not talking about Portugal) and people in the past never looked at them or ignored it.
They also can't backtrack and date things like we can now. In that era I suspect they weren't as interested in measuring contests about that like we do 500 years later now.
If it did happen then about 1550 no one would know it, it wouldn't be some sort of generation to generation secret cult, the later generations would have never heard of it.

Columbus is a real enigma, so many things about him are false or misleading.
The idea to reach India by west was not Columbus' idea, Toscanelli had suggested it to the portuguese before Columbus.
As many people of that era sort of knew, and the portuguese knew even more accurately, India was far closer by east than west.
The radius of the Earth was known with great precision and Columbus even claims he was present when the jewish mathematician Master Vizinho was taking measures of the solar heights in order to increase the precision of the portuguese measurements.
Portugal also tried to look at other sources to get to India, the luso-danish expeditions to the artic in the 1470s that we know pretty much nothing about were probably to check out the possibility of reaching India from other routes.

I would say that if Portugal discovered America before 1492 I would say it's probably after 1482 as the fortress in Mina (Ghana) was built in that year, which gave more assurances in the voyages to Guinea. This would be right before Columbus last proposed as he left Portugal to Spain in 1484.

 

[Kazanov]

Magellan.

 

[Geriander]

I would say that if Portugal discovered America before 1492 I would say it's probably after 1482 as the fortress in Mina (Ghana) was built in that year, which gave more assurances in the voyages to Guinea. This would be right before Columbus last proposed as he left Portugal to Spain in 1484.

That would seem to resolve my original argument with bz249 as Columbus couldn’t have heard rumors of sonething that hadn’t happened yet. I suppose that Portugal discovering the Americas before Columbus is possible but the lack of evidence puts the claim on a level with the Celtic and Carthaginian ones.

 

[bz249]

That would seem to resolve my original argument with bz249 as Columbus couldn’t have heard rumors of sonething that hadn’t happened yet. I suppose that Portugal discovering the Americas before Columbus is possible but the lack of evidence puts the claim on a level with the Celtic and Carthaginian ones.

I did not say that the Portuguese discovered America but silenced it... I wrote rumours, since the ocean gyre was known and utilized already in the voyage of Vasco da Gama it is not that far fetched that some sailors got a hint (piece of wood, birds, sandy water whatever) about a possible landmass not far away in the West.
And Columbus the sailor put those things together and concluded the result that there must be a continent there, after that Columbus the scientist/explorer did a mistake and assummed that it must be Japan so logically the circumference of the Earth must be smaller.