Factory construction and conversions

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Axe99

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Yes, but that doesn't tell me how long I can expect it to take with 15 factories tasked to a single conversion since I am not clear on how tech and/or ministers affects these computations. I figure Denkt or Axe99 might be able to further explain it for me.

Up front, all of the below is very speculative, and Denkt's likely to provide a far more useful answer, but it wouldn't any fun not to try :).

Even assuming no bonuses, I expect that converting military to civilian may not help as while our 'combat' equipment will date, we could be using it to build trucks or the like that would still be useful when war breaks out, and we'll need infantry equipment for training to boot.

Going on the numbers in the OP (which may be subject to change), assuming no bonuses (which may also change), and no benefit in the produce of the military factory early (which I'd think would only be the case for the US - everyone else is likely to be at war soon enough that even 1936 equipment is better than none at all), then for 15 civilian factories, it takes 96 days to create another civilian factory (Option A), and 53 days to convert a military factory to a civilian factory (Option B).

However, at some stage in the future (assuming we're not playing a pacifist Germany and don't think anyone will declare war on us :)) we'll need military factories again, and in Option A, we go from 15 civ/1 military to 16 civ, while in Option B we go from 15 civ/1 military to 16 civ/1 military - so when war comes, while we'll need to convert our new civ factory to military (another 26 days - but assuming we don't start converting our new civilian factory into a military one right away, between construction and conversion it will be usefully building more things for us) we'll have more factories overall (so the cap on number of factories per province starts to come into play as well).

There's also the question of whether we can use factories in the process of being converted (ie, is it a binary civilian or military state, or is there a 'being converted' state where they don't produce anything at all?)

So it depends in no small part on the payoff we get from the civilian factory as a civilian factory that's been converted - without bonuses, that's around 800 days in-game, so a bit over two years, and another 400 days if we want to convert it back to a military factory again (so closer to four years, although the 400 days is earnt back in military production, not civilian).

That said, those bonuses for production between different mobilisation states are important, and then there are ministers that can help things along as well, and I'm sure some of the techs will change the equation yet again. Pile on some bonuses, and that useful turn-around could go from around four years to around two, and it becomes far more rational (if a tad fiddly - I doubt I'll ever play it this way myself, I'm not really a min-maxxer) to convert military to civ and back again, assuming (which may not be the case) that there's limited value from what those military factories are producing (ie, while the tanks the US may build between 1936-1940 - M2, for example - may not be any use in combat - when the US gears up, it's going to need a lot of equipment for training, so all that old stuff will still have a purpose).

It feels a little 'off' to me that it would make sense for any nation, even one that didn't expect to end up at war, to be drawing down its military production capacity in 1936 (or later). If the old equipment wasn't useful enough for training (which I think it probably will be) it makes me wonder whether there's some value in gaining some experience (land, air or sea, depending on what's being produced) from producing things as well. That would make the decision to convert from military to civilian a far less sensible one (although possibly still sensible in some circumstances), as the US could then use this experience to design variants, or redesign divisions, in ways that were plausible and sensible. This last paragraph is just the historical plausibility person in me rambling though, I'm not suggesting changes to the core design (although I do think there could be value in experience from production more broadly, although am just thinking out loud - need to actually play the game and get a feel for it first to really have any idea :)).
 

Secret Master

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There's also the question of whether we can use factories in the process of being converted (ie, is it a binary civilian or military state, or is there a 'being converted' state where they don't produce anything at all?)

Well, now that's the $64,000 question.

And you are right: it seems odd that drawing down military production might be prudent in 1936. I really think they will tweak those rules.
 

Denkt

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(For reference a civilian factory produce 5 Build points (BP) each day (but this can be modified by things like output efficiency and technology so it will likely be quite larger))

About factory conversion:
I don't know that much about that subject. From what I understand, converting a civilian factory into a military factory cost 2000 BP and converting a military factory into a civilian factory cost 4000 BP. I would assume that the converting factory will act as 1 civilian factory working on its conversion. So with 15 civilian factories (each producing 5 BP per day, a very low number, realisticly expect something like atleast 7.5 for a country with little conscription) working on converting a civilian factory into a military factory will finish the conversion in 2000/(5*15) = 26.67 days (that would be 27 days). Twice as long for the opposite conversion.

About lend leasing factories:
The only way as far as I know would be to trade for a countries resources as the exporter in return get to use some of your factories.

About consumer goods:
I did not talk about the importance of consumer goods. Civilian factories and Military factories increase your need for consumer goods but dockyards do not. To see how many consumer goods you need, add togther your number of civilian and military factories and multiply with your consumer goods needs (which is 30% for civilian economy).

Thus under a civilian economy each military and civilian factory will cost 0.3 civilian factories (only civilian factories can make consumer goods). Thus if you build a civilian factories you actually only get 0.7 of a civilian factory as the rest is needed for consumer goods (this is not exactly true because either you need a factory to produce consumer goods or you dont).

And if you build military factories you will need more and more of your civilian industry to produce consumer goods, building alot of military factories can thus stagnate your economy under a civilian economy (you will also need more trades with more military factories).
 
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Katarian

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To throw a spanner into the works, I don't think anyone has taken Production Efficiency into consideration. You have to consider the payoff of producing say Fighter I with a military factory and then switch to Fighter II, rather then converting that military factory first to a civilian factory and then back to a military factory and start producing Fighter II.
 
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Denkt

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Military factories are not very productive in the early game because they have low efficiency cap while dockyards and civilian factories don't have anything like efficiency. Thus the late boomer may not be as much behind as you may think, military factories only reach their top at 1941 or even 1943 then the streamlined vs flexible line choice can be made.

Converting will give you more factories in the long run then letting your military factories be. It can be used by Germany if you are trying a late war startegy, probably with a heavy navy focus.
 

Secret Master

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About consumer goods:
I did not talk about the importance of consumer goods. Civilian factories and Military factories increase your need for consumer goods but dockyards do not. To see how many consumer goods you need, add togther your number of civilian and military factories and multiply with your consumer goods needs (which is 30% for civilian economy).

Thus under a civilian economy each military and civilian factory will cost 0.3 civilian factories (only civilian factories can make consumer goods). Thus if you build a civilian factories you actually only get 0.7 of a civilian factory as the rest is needed for consumer goods (this is not exactly true because either you need a factory to produce consumer goods or you dont).

This is actually a big point. The numbers are not so clear cut as they appear.

And this is why I asked for clarification. :)
 

Denkt

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I looked at the newest WWW stream and Japan's economy law (Partial mobilization) reduce the cost of converting factories (both ways) by 10% and add a 10% production modifier then building military factories. It need 20% consumer goods.

This mean that the mobilization laws make it much easier to convert factories, I wonder if civilian economy make it even easier to make military factories into civilian factories.
 
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Katarian

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Civilian Economy makes it's easier to build civilian factories. Actually thinking about it the US will be on an even better Economic law (Isolation) for building civilian factories so it might not be worth converting military factories for them.

Military factories are not very productive in the early game because they have low efficiency cap while dockyards and civilian factories don't have anything like efficiency. Thus the late boomer may not be as much behind as you may think, military factories only reach their top at 1941 or even 1943 then the streamlined vs flexible line choice can be made.

Converting will give you more factories in the long run then letting your military factories be. It can be used by Germany if you are trying a late war strategy, probably with a heavy navy focus.

It will depend on when you are getting into the war, countries that go to war early will have more to consider about production efficiency then a "safe" late comer like the US. Long term it will be better to build more factories but that has to be balanced by how much danger your country might be in. Technologies will also play a part if you for production efficiency improving ones early, and some countries focuses might make it viable to research those techs earlier then their historic dates.
 

Denkt

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I doubt isolation will be the best law for building civilian factories because it need a massive amount of consumer goods, best law is probably civilian economy, or maybe even a more mobilized law.

Yes if I would play a normal game as Germany I would build military factories in 1936, however if I try for late war then things like converting the military factories into civilian factories and change economy law to civilian economy becomes interesting.

UK could use its navy to protect itself in the early game so it could go for a long term economy buildup.

Japan should build military factories or maybe dockyards, but I think military factories are more important because it need to make huge conquest.

It would be nice if somebody could ask in WWW to show the current version of the economy laws (which are not the same as in the wiki) so we can plan our economy development strategy.
 
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Secret Master

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Civilian factories do not require resources, but military factories do.

Hypothetically, could you compute the exact amount of raw materials you could use to fuel military factories for important items (ships, planes, tanks) and build factories accordingly? Or are there techs/doctrines/NFs that optimize resource production/usage?
 

Denkt

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There are technologies that make your states produce more resources but thats all. Each equipment have a resource cost and that cost will never change. More advanced equipment need more resources then early equipment, but this is largely compensated by the technologies that increase the amount of resources your state produce.

So you can calculate the exact amount of resources you will need for maximum efficiency.
 

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There are technologies that make your states produce more resources but thats all. Each equipment have a resource cost and that cost will never change. More advanced equipment need more resources then early equipment, but this is largely compensated by the technologies that increase the amount of resources your state produce.

So you can calculate the exact amount of resources you will need for maximum efficiency.

Then I guess on January 1st, 1936, we're getting our slide rules out and number crunching. No point in building extra military factories beyond our capacity to supply them with resources.
 

Alexander Suvorov

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One aspect no one has mentioned I think is the built up production line efficiency you start with on day one. If you were to convert to civilian all of your military factories, you lose that. it would be I think clever to keep a tiny number of your starting mil factories, say the infantry equipment prod line with 1 factory, same for support equipment and maybe motorized or fighters or something you know you want to start producing lots of fast when you switch factories back to military. leaving just 1 mil factory for each line will mean the line will still have full efficiency (or at least as much as it started with; your industrial efficiency cap will have changed by this point in the game and the 1 factory may not have built up efficiency to the new cap). When you convert civilian to military, you can dump 14 more factories into those production lines and have those factories immediately working at better efficiency.

edit: Denkt will no doubt be able to tell me if this is wrong... which is half the reason I posted it.
 

Alexander Suvorov

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Then I guess on January 1st, 1936, we're getting our slide rules out and number crunching. No point in building extra military factories beyond our capacity to supply them with resources.


Refineries! +2 oil and +1 rubber for one building slots. you must use the slide rule to further calculate the # of building slots you will have left after deploying factories to match your existing resources, and then also calculate the additional number of refineries and factories you can support with those building slots and the correct # of each to construct to achieve harmonious balance of resource and factory. but you will have 1 rubber left over and it will make red text on your screen which you will hate.
 
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Refineries! +2 oil and +1 rubber for one building slots. you must use the slide rule to further calculate the # of building slots you will have left after deploying factories to match your existing resources, and then also calculate the additional number of refineries and factories you can support with those building slots and the correct # of each to construct to achieve harmonious balance of resource and factory. but you will have 1 rubber left over and it will make red text on your screen which you will hate.

Are synthetic rubber and oil plants military or civilian?

I'm guessing civilian, but since in real life they use certain inputs that might be needed elsewhere....
 
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GhengisKhan

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Are synthetic rubber and oil plants military or civilian?

I'm guessing civilian, but since in real life they use certain inputs that might be needed elsewhere....

They are neither they are their own building entirely seperate from factories but do take up one factory slot.
 

potski

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Your resources don't stockpile, and people stop trading with you and blow your convoys out of the water if you go to war. Good luck in getting the resources to use all of that late war MiC efficiently ;)
 

potski

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It would be absurd for Germany, or anyone, to immediately, or only have to wait to gain enough PP, switch to War Economy in 1936. Surely the very first requirement to switch to War Economy should be you have to be at war.
No, just to have an enemy, and to create fear and a feeling that there are enemies of the state about to overthrow the government, preferably in collusion with foreign governments. And it helps to have a sizeable group of the population who are in places we can't discuss. That reduces your demand for consumer goods, while giving you a ready made labour force to put into some of your construction projects. That's why democracies can't do it except in a war, and only when their population believe they are fighting for their existence.
 
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hkrommel

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Are synthetic rubber and oil plants military or civilian?

I'm guessing civilian, but since in real life they use certain inputs that might be needed elsewhere....

They don't take up resources but they're very expensive and IMO should only be built if you're Germany or Japan (maybe USSR just in case).
 

Midden

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The synthetic plant build seems way too expense at the moment, the WWW the players seem convinced that there output is not worth tying up your civilian factories for so long. They seem to need balancing to make them a viable option to build.

I think I saw that when Daniel traded for oil he used 3 Civilian factories for 30 oil. Which seems a good deal.

Whereas, it looked like he would need 15 Civilian factories sacrificed for something like a year to make 1 Synthetic plant which once it was completed, would give you a drip of oil. Which doesn't seem like a good deal.
 
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