Factions... where do they get the manpower from?

[lafo_mamone]

OK. So here's something which has been making me go nuts since I started playing CK2 again after an EU4 binge (and been making me ragequit a couple of times)....

I think this came about with the Conclave update, as before I didn't have this problem: factions get strong enough and rebel (fair enough, their right). Now, they have armies (nice ones too) and I have my retinues, whatever I raise from levies. However, the faction members don't raise any levies (apart from the faction leader). How do I know this? Except for the leader's demesne, all other show levies at full strength... So. Where do the faction armies come from, since there is no way in seven hells that one leader with several counties in his demesne can raise 10-15K on his own and I know it's not his vassals, as there are not enough troops in the rebelled counties to make up those numbers. To complement this, the sub-leader members can still raise levies later to free any holdings I may have successfully taken over... So effectively, I'm fighting 3-10 times manpower of my armies without much help.

Also, seems that during sieges my army gets reduced numbers (even without siege events shown to me), while the faction army seems to lose manpower in sieges only if they assault.

I know CK2 is not meant to be a walk in the park and the new notoriety systems ensures you can't roflstomp the AI in global conquest, but seriously... I can't fight unicorns and leprechauns which magically appear out of the AI's imagination.

 

[Heinrich4]

How do I know this? Except for the leader's demesne, all other show levies at full strength...

If you raise your vassals levies they will not lose any troops, so they are still able to raise all of their levies. Test this with your vassals.

So the most troops come from their vassals, and because revolt leaders get an opinion bonus with their vassals they are able to raise their full levies.

 

[BD13]

Faction armies seem to be based on the manpower of each individual member of the faction.

For example... During my last revolt I was able to raise about 8k in troops. As soon as the faction leader started the revolt about 8k faction troops rose up in my province and I had zero control over them.

I assume the faction leader has complete control of the faction troops that are raised.

 

[lafo_mamone]

Makes no sense either way... The levies have to come from somewhere, lol. Seems like it would make more sense to show them as raised when either side does it... But then my vassals don't raise their levies to free any holdings they get occupied by the rebellious faction... Shouldn't the fact that someone came in and took over their holding (arguably with some pillaging and raping) make them at least hostile to the rebels, like it does to peasant rebellions or raiding?

 

[sigeena]

The faction members are have 100 opinion of their liege, the faction leader, and will thus contribute 100% of their levies.

 

[Heinrich4]

I assume the faction leader has complete control of the faction troops that are raised.

Not really. But the faction leader get a 500 opinion bonus to all of his vassals, so he can raise most of their troops.

But then my vassals don't raise their levies to free any holdings they get occupied by the rebellious faction...

Yeah you are right. They do not raise their troops, because it isnt their fight. You are fighting against the faction, and your vassals provide you with troops.

 

[lafo_mamone]

If it's my fight and they don't want to get involved, might as well me an absolute leader XD After all, it's their property that's getting destroyed, so they might as well turn it over to me. But this makes sense as I was always trying to weaken the factions by using raised vassal levies in fights, in order to deplete their numbers somewhat...

 

[Heinrich4]

But this makes sense as I was always trying to weaken the factions by using raised vassal levies in fights, in order to deplete their numbers somewhat...

This will not work. Even if you raise all of your vassals troops and destroy them completely, your vassals can still raise their full troops.

 

[lafo_mamone]

As I said: it's an army of unicorns and leprechauns. Oh well... I guess my tactic from a game I played as the Byzantine Basileus needs dusting off: forget the vassals, just take all the land and run the place as one huge over the limit demesne XD

 

[psychoak]

You can't. You'll have zero opinion baron vassals way over your vassal limit that wont provide you with money and will go independent at the first opportunity, unless you run all those too, in which case you'll have no vassal levies whatsoever and thus no free troops to raise. Your income will be so thrashed by the penalty from being over your limit that you'd need to save for years to afford to raise your army, which will be at 10% strength.

 

[Heinrich4]

You can't. You'll have zero opinion baron vassals way over your vassal limit that wont provide you with money and will go independent at the first opportunity, unless you run all those too, in which case you'll have no vassal levies whatsoever and thus no free troops to raise. Your income will be so thrashed by the penalty from being over your limit that you'd need to save for years to afford to raise your army, which will be at 10% strength.

And you will get -20% per demense size over limit (if you have 11/9 demense, you will get -40% levies)

 

[Rognvaldr19]

They have levies that are separate from the realm's levies, that's without whatever modifiers you have and whether you over limit on vassals or demesne.

For example, I'm playing at the moment as the Shahansha of Persia and I gave away all of the kingdoms (Khiva, Afghanistan, Baluchistan and Mesopotamia), except Persia which I kept. My total levy is 20,000, but the Shah of Mesopotamia can pull 11,000 on his own, but when I raise the levy, I only get 3,000 of his troops.

 

[lafo_mamone]

You can't. You'll have zero opinion baron vassals way over your vassal limit that wont provide you with money and will go independent at the first opportunity, unless you run all those too, in which case you'll have no vassal levies whatsoever and thus no free troops to raise. Your income will be so thrashed by the penalty from being over your limit that you'd need to save for years to afford to raise your army, which will be at 10% strength.

And you will get -20% per demense size over limit (if you have 11/9 demense, you will get -40% levies)

Ah, but then I can do whatever I want with the laws, since no one of status of count or higher will have a negative opinion. Also, it would totally be worth it. If I need to raise a levy, just keep myself permabroke XD

 

[Aries666]

Ah, but then I can do whatever I want with the laws, since no one of status of count or higher will have a negative opinion. Also, it would totally be worth it. If I need to raise a levy, just keep myself permabroke XD

It doesn't matter what you do with your laws. For every 1 over demesne limit you get -10 opinion so if you control all counties in something like the ERE all your mayor and bishops will have -100 opinion and thus pay you no money or contribute any levy. Your personal levy and income will also be pretty much 0 for the same reason.

 

[Zsrai]

It's been like this for... a couple of years now. The liege's levy percentage isn't shown as coming from the vassal's total count; they all kind of come out of "no where". It's the same for the player and the "regular" (non-revolt) AI, etc. Since it's the same for everyone anyways, I don't see what the big problem here is? Suspension of disbelief?

 

[Rubidium]

Yes, all armies (except a character's personal demesne) are made up of unicorns. Whenever anyone raises troops from a vassal, you can look at the vassal's land and it will still have the full set of troops in place. And don't even ask where retinues, event troops and mercenaries come from.

It's done to prevent the tactic of slaughtering your vassal's army en masse (e.g. by raising and then disbanding in foreign territory) to prevent factions from forming, and has been that way for many patches.

On the other hand, the revolt leader does use their own demesne for troops so their holdings will be more vulnerable.

 

[Lord_P]

They get it from the future, through a reverse-engineered EU4 converter.