Feeona

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Hello everyone!

It's the last but not least faction reveal, The Unseen. For as long as there has been a Seattle, there have been some that didn’t suit the Pioneers’ vision of a place made of art as much as brick, glass and iron. The misshapen members of clan Nosferatu never had a chance to fit in. They were encouraged to stay out of sight: In the outskirts, the shadows and - as the city grew - its Underground.

The Unseen

“THERE IS ALWAYS TIME.”
-The Council of Three

For more than a century, the Unseen have been led by the Council of Three - or "The Speakers" to the Nosferatu. These resourceful Kindred helped their people survive among the homeless and loners of the city. While the rest of Seattle’s vampires took pains to ignore them, these Unseen grew into a faction, began trading secrets… And grudges.

Today, the Council has left much of the Nosferatu’s operation to younger vampires more adept at gathering intel in modern nights. Where the Unseen used to be composed of thieves, frauds and homeless, they now also include journalists, engineers and hackers. While the older Nosferatu are used to an existence of survival, the younger ones have begun to look for ways of making a mark on their city.

The Unseen have been here for a long time, and they see everything. They’d be a potent ally to the vampires of any other of Seattle’s factions - if they can be found.

Tight-Knit

No other faction of vampires in Seattle looks out for their own like the Nosferatu. What else can you do, if nobody else will even look at you?

Information Brokers

It’s amazing what the Nosferatu’s peculiar skills and a few decades of being ignored will unearth, if your home happens to be one of the tech hubs of the world. The Unseen know what you did, why you’re trying to hide it - and who’ll pay to find out.

Unnoticed

Seattle has been a city of drifters, transients and homeless for almost as long as it has existed. By and large, people just look the other way. The Unseen walk among these unfortunates, hidden in plain sight to vampire and human alike.

faction-posters-u-jd2nf6h-c594bb.jpg
 

OzzieSmith

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I think I'm okay with not having Nosferatu in the initial release. They're fun to play, but it's a drastically different experience. I'd like them to take the time to do it right, and having them first focus on getting the others, which are more similar to each other, right is fine with me. Also, the transition from Thinblood to Nosferatu will probably be more complicated than from Thinblood to any other clan.
 

OzzieSmith

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I don´t know. Its a bit strange to have a joinable Nosferatu faction but not play as Nosferatu. I won´t say that make the Unseen pointless but its weird.
Also regardless of this faction the Nosferatu deserves to be in the main game and not as to be fair free DLC.

I really don´t care if i get tons of downvotes for that but maybe this is another reason to delay this game. Give Bloodlines 2 more polish and allow
us to play as Nosferau in the basic main game (without DLCs).

I get what you’re saying, but I disagree (I don’t think disagreeing is worthy of a downvote. Polite discussion of different opinions is fine.).

I’m a software engineer. I don’t make video games, but I can understand the need to get software into the hands of users rather than later. It used to be that if you didn’t get everything perfect in the first release then you were screwed, but it’s so easy to put out patches now, that it’s generally better to get it out with fewer features so people can start using it, getting used to it, and giving feedback, as soon as possible. There still needs to be most of what is desired from the product, but if it can do most of it then faster is better than perfect.

And as far as the faction thing, the factions aren’t meant to be clan specific. They might have a clan that is the core of the faction, but not everyone in the faction will belong to that clan, and not everyone in the clan will belong to the faction. When they add Nosferatu I do plan to have my first Nos be in the Unseen, but eventually I want to do a Nos that joins the Pioneers, just because I can. Maybe RP that they had a falling out with the other Nosferatu.
 

OzzieSmith

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I agree that I’d rather have them push back the release date than release something that is clearly not finished, but I don’t think including the Nosferatu as a playable clan is something that would qualify it as not being finished, particularly not when they’re already planning to do dlc patches.
 

Marc_Hicks

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Intriguing that we don't appear to have a true Anarch faction in Seattle-a la what we see in LA or Chicago. Is that more due to the tight grip that The Camarilla holds over Seattle, especially now that the Sabbat have fled the scene?
 

Some Random Forum Person

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No love lost between these guys and the rest of vampire society, and they could easily think themselves able to hide from the consequences of a masquerade breach.
Intriguing that we don't appear to have a true Anarch faction in Seattle-a la what we see in LA or Chicago. Is that more due to the tight grip that The Camarilla holds over Seattle, especially now that the Sabbat have fled the scene?
Looks like we have at least two to me; the Baron and the Pioneers. And the Newcomers might be considered Anarchs, or they might not be.
 

Marc_Hicks

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No love lost between these guys and the rest of vampire society, and they could easily think themselves able to hide from the consequences of a masquerade breach.

Looks like we have at least two to me; the Baron and the Pioneers. And the Newcomers might be considered Anarchs, or they might not be.

Yeah, I see what you're saying, & I do kind of agree with you......but they're not Anarchs as we've come to understand them in other "World of Darkness" media-like the Brujah/Caitiff led Anarchs of Chicago (even if they were just pawns of the Methuselah, Meneleus) or the Brujah led Anarchs of LA.

That said, the factions of Seattle seem to be much more numerous, & have a lot more depth & personality, than those of Bloodlines 1......which will hopefully make for far more interesting options during each play-through.
 

Dmitrius

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Yeah I'm not a huge Nosferatu fan personally, but I'm scratching my head with this one.

Why would I join a faction based around clan cohesiveness at all cost if I'm not part of that clan?

Are all factions available to join? Have I just assumed that? I thought was what the game was indicating before. Now that I think about it, probably not. Perhaps some factions are periphery only. Maybe the inevitable Nosferatu clan update will unlock additional involvement with this clan.

In any case, if I can't enlist with the newcomers as a tremere xmas is cancelled !!?! Lol
 

OzzieSmith

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Personally, I suspect the factions will work similarly to how they did in Bloodlines 1. I hope there’s more variety based on your choices, but I suspect you won’t actually join any faction until the end, and these represent endings you can end up with. I hope which ending you get is determined by choices made earlier and less directly than the taxi conversation with Caine was, but I suspect we’ll be working with each group periodically no matter which we end up siding with in the end. I also hope they have the loner option at the end again.
 

Dmitrius

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Personally, I suspect the factions will work similarly to how they did in Bloodlines 1. I hope there’s more variety based on your choices, but I suspect you won’t actually join any faction until the end, and these represent endings you can end up with. I hope which ending you get is determined by choices made earlier and less directly than the taxi conversation with Caine was, but I suspect we’ll be working with each group periodically no matter which we end up siding with in the end. I also hope they have the loner option at the end again.
Yeah, I've been playing a lot of Obsidian games recently where you have a huge amount of choice as to who to side with and when. It's not necessarily the only way to go and it can hamper the depth of a linear story. Just depends on how the writers want to structure the narrative and where they fall on the trade offs.
 

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Personally, I suspect the factions will work similarly to how they did in Bloodlines 1. I hope there’s more variety based on your choices, but I suspect you won’t actually join any faction until the end, and these represent endings you can end up with. I hope which ending you get is determined by choices made earlier and less directly than the taxi conversation with Caine was, but I suspect we’ll be working with each group periodically no matter which we end up siding with in the end. I also hope they have the loner option at the end again.
Though if I'm honest the section in the cab with Caine was one of my highlights.

Just drifting through Los Angeles reflecting on the events of the game up to that point, serenely deciding on a course of action. Like a golden age movie hero just before the grand finale and reveal, very cool.

It's a shame the actual ending failed to deliver on the promise.

Apart from Jack of course.
 

Dmitrius

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Thanks but i don´t believe that many will follow your example. Arguing here for a delay gets you are plently of downvotes. But to be clear i really don´t care i only
want the best for Bloodlines 2.


Regardless of the product you don´t release it when your release is full with much bigger competitors. Also at the end quality matters and not a fix it later attitude.
Of course games are buggy in the past and future & its impossible to release a bugfree game but i would say the times are over when you can release a clealy unfinished game like Anthem or Fallout 76.

Also Bloodlines 2 is currently the bright star in Paradox and also Big Ben World of Darkness games lineup. If Bloodlines 2 is a buggy mess well all of their plans
for future games are in danger. So give Bloodlines 2 more time to polish and too shine.


I know you can for example join the Pioneers as Non Toreador but you still have the option to play as Toreador.
So it feels weird to not have the option first to join the Unseen as Nosferatu.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Paradox Studio games tend to come out feature light and packed with promise which absolutely works in an iterative continuous improvement cycle.

But Bloodlines 2 is a different animal. For most players it'll be a one and done. First impressions are going to matter a lot with the broader demographics this game will hope to sell to.

CK2, EU4, Imperator, Stellaris (to a lesser extent) are niche products that do well because a dedicated fan base are willing to pay for dlc over a number of years and generally accept that they're paying for a work in progress. Why? Because the love it and they can't get the same elsewhere (why can't I quit you Paradox lol).

That's not to say Bloodlines does not have an equally rabid fanbase, but to build the franchise I think most of those fans want requires additional fans not just the die hards like us. Those people expect quality out of the gate. They won't wait for improvements.
 

Marc_Hicks

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Yeah. Paradox Studio games tend to come out feature light and packed with promise which absolutely works in an iterative continuous improvement cycle.

But Bloodlines 2 is a different animal. For most players it'll be a one and done. First impressions are going to matter a lot with the broader demographics this game will hope to sell to.

CK2, EU4, Imperator, Stellaris (to a lesser extent) are niche products that do well because a dedicated fan base are willing to pay for dlc over a number of years and generally accept that they're paying for a work in progress. Why? Because the love it and they can't get the same elsewhere (why can't I quit you Paradox lol).

That's not to say Bloodlines does not have an equally rabid fanbase, but to build the franchise I think most of those fans want requires additional fans not just the die hards like us. Those people expect quality out of the gate. They won't wait for improvements.

I actually disagree. I think that Paradox will show the same commitment to Bloodlines 2 that it shows to *all* the games it publishes. Battle-tech is getting both paid DLC & free updates almost 2 years post release, & CKII is getting free updates 7 years post-release. If this were EA or Activision, both those games would have been abandoned by now, in search of the newest annualized, "Live Service" piece of rubbish.
 
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Dmitrius

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I actually disagree. I think that Paradox will show the same commitment to Bloodlines 2 that it shows to *all* the games it publishes. Battle-tech is getting both paid DLC & free updates almost 2 years post release, & CKII is getting free updates 7 years post-release. If this were EA or Activision, both those games would have been abandoned by now, in search of the newest annualized, "Live Service" piece of rubbish.
Who said they weren't committed to games in the long term, what I said was the opposite?
 

Marc_Hicks

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Who said they weren't committed to games in the long term, what I said was the opposite?

I was merely making the point that I believe the sales threshold needed, by Paradox, for them to call the game a success is much lower than for most AAA publishers. Imperator Rome apparently didn't sell especially well, by Paradox standards, yet that has still gotten close to a years worth of free content......& I suspect that word of mouth about the improvements will attract more people to buy that game now too. Meanwhile, initial sales for Bloodlines will probably be higher than for Imperator, Age of Wonders or Battle-Tech, & I suspect more people will be lured in after each DLC is launched......as long as the game is solid. After some of the garbage released by the AAA studios over this past 12 months (Anthem, Fallout 76, Ghost Recon, Division 2), I suspect Bloodlines 2 will seem like a breath of fresh air to even the non hardcore RPG fans ;).

The other point is that, as a story-driven RPG game, & not a grand strategy game, I suspect Bloodlines 2 will launch in essentially a Feature Complete state. The absence of 2 or 3 clans at launch will probably not be a big deal to anyone who isn't a hardcore fan of the game. Just so long as they get a deep, role-playing game experience with lots of great NPC's & a cool story.
 

RagnarokCzD

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We have here a Nosferatu faction but atleast for the main game you aren´t allowed to play as a Nosferatu. It feels a bit pointless and incomplete in this way.
No we dont ...
We have a faction we know is controlled mainly by two Nosferatus.
Everything else is just speculation. ;)

For example ... description of Baron also fits to Lasombra ... and that is not playable, no problem here? :)
 

Dmitrius

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No we dont ...
We have a faction we know is controlled mainly by two Nosferatus.
Everything else is just speculation. ;)

For example ... description of Baron also fits to Lasombra ... and that is not playable, no problem here? :)
To be fair, the description seems clear that this is by in large a Nosferatu faction, no?
 

RagnarokCzD

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Yeah ... you know that feel, when you look at the sentence you wrote and you feel that there is something odd ... so you change it, and again, and again ... and then original meaning is lost?
This is the case. -_-

I wanted to wrote originaly that this is mainly (but not exclusive, wich is important here) Nosferatu faction. :D
My bad.
 

Dmitrius

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I was merely making the point that I believe the sales threshold needed, by Paradox, for them to call the game a success is much lower than for most AAA publishers. Imperator Rome apparently didn't sell especially well, by Paradox standards, yet that has still gotten close to a years worth of free content......& I suspect that word of mouth about the improvements will attract more people to buy that game now too. Meanwhile, initial sales for Bloodlines will probably be higher than for Imperator, Age of Wonders or Battle-Tech, & I suspect more people will be lured in after each DLC is launched......as long as the game is solid. After some of the garbage released by the AAA studios over this past 12 months (Anthem, Fallout 76, Ghost Recon, Division 2), I suspect Bloodlines 2 will seem like a breath of fresh air to even the non hardcore RPG fans ;).

The other point is that, as a story-driven RPG game, & not a grand strategy game, I suspect Bloodlines 2 will launch in essentially a Feature Complete state. The absence of 2 or 3 clans at launch will probably not be a big deal to anyone who isn't a hardcore fan of the game. Just so long as they get a deep, role-playing game experience with lots of great NPC's & a cool story.
All of those games are strategy. Strategy playtime is largely dependent on how long it takes to get bored of mechanics. Those mechanics could almost be expanded upon indefinitely.

RPG's are different, their lifetime is largely driven by how many times the player can enjoy hearing variations of the same story. Hardcore fans will enjoy it more than the mainstream, forgive it's flaws and enjoy improvements made over time. I am one of those fans.

Mainstream audiences will buy the game and judge it based purely on current state. I feel that most people are sick of games coming out in unpolished states, promises of fixes down the line will not help to the degree that PS games enjoy (which is largely a trust thing additional to an understanding of the design logic on the fanbase's part).

It is unlikely that Bloodline's 2 will receive post launch DLC in the same vein as CK2 for example though I'm sure it will be extensive enough for an RPG. The business model for middling budget RPG's appears to be main game + 4ish DLC's. Then a sequel. Mainstream audiences don't buy sequels to games that failed to meet their initial expectation.

Yes Paradox don't need to make huge mountains of revenue like cost heavy triple AAA producers do, but they do need customers outside of the special interest group from the first game, pnp and existing customer base.

Beyond that need, no right minded producer would intentionally settle for a lesser total revenue than the game was estimated to produce. Talk of not needing money doesn't make sense from a business point of view ever. Of course they don't need anything past initial projections to investors, but the point is to push as far as possible within the limit of meeting capacity at an acceptable quality level.
 

Marc_Hicks

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All of those games are strategy. Strategy playtime is largely dependent on how long it takes to get bored of mechanics. Those mechanics could almost be expanded upon indefinitely.

RPG's are different, their lifetime is largely driven by how many times the player can enjoy hearing variations of the same story. Hardcore fans will enjoy it more than the mainstream, forgive it's flaws and enjoy improvements made over time. I am one of those fans.

Mainstream audiences will buy the game and judge it based purely on current state. I feel that most people are sick of games coming out in unpolished states, promises of fixes down the line will not help to the degree that PS games enjoy (which is largely a trust thing additional to an understanding of the design logic on the fanbase's part).

It is unlikely that Bloodline's 2 will receive post launch DLC in the same vein as CK2 for example though I'm sure it will be extensive enough for an RPG. The business model for middling budget RPG's appears to be main game + 4ish DLC's. Then a sequel. Mainstream audiences don't buy sequels to games that failed to meet their initial expectation.

Yes Paradox don't need to make huge mountains of revenue like cost heavy triple AAA producers do, but they do need customers outside of the special interest group from the first game, pnp and existing customer base.

Beyond that need, no right minded producer would intentionally settle for a lesser total revenue than the game was estimated to produce. Talk of not needing money doesn't make sense from a business point of view ever. Of course they don't need anything past initial projections to investors, but the point is to push as far as possible within the limit of meeting capacity at an acceptable quality level.

Way to miss my entire point, not to mention misrepresent most of what I said. I'd debate you on this matter, but I value my time far too much (plus, I feel you & Andrei have already derailed this thread enough).
I will say, though, that the AAA industry isn't "cost heavy", just very greedy.