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pnt

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First of all, I would like to thank Paradox for the excellent NSB expansion, which greatly improved land combat and added some very nice touches to the game.

So building on this success, the question is where to go next? Very broadly, my impression is that at the moment the game has a good local balance in each theater (Axis vs. Soviets, Japan vs. China, etc), and the new supply system in combination with a neutral Vichy means that even Africa now looks much more reasonable.

And the game developers should be proud of showing the real history and contribution of the different groups in China, even though pointing out the limited Communist participation apparently was not appreciated by the current government in China.

However, the game is not very accurate in terms of the relative industrial strengths of the three factions, where the Allies - and in particular the US - have been dramatically nerfed. While this does not affect the playability of the game, it can give the impression that WW2 was mostly a "Germany vs USSR" affair, and that Stalin "saved the world from Fascism," - which is one of the popular myths currently being propagated in parts of the world (like that most of the Soviet deaths during WW2 were Russians rather than Ukrainians and Belorussians).

Thus, rebalancing the factions to better reflect the role of the democracies played in the war could have some merit in itself. Looking specifically at the US, although a smaller fraction of the industry was used for military production (and did not use slave labor from concentration camps and Gulags), the US industrial output exceeded that of the Axis and the USSR combined, both in terms of peak rates and the integral value. And while one can argue that the allocations were, with hindsight not optional, the overall impact was decisive.

And example of suboptimal allocations was the disproportionally large investment in the navy. For HOI4 players who struggle to build a couple of capital ships and maybe a few cruisers, it is worth recollecting that during the war the US built 10 modern battleships, 2 battle cruisers, 24 large aircraft carriers (Essex, with 2 Midways completed at the end of the war), 11 light carriers (cruiser hull conversions), as well as 54 escort carriers (which are not represented in the game, but were almost the same size as a CVL, ony slower), as well as cruisers, destroyers, and destroyer escorts by the hundreds. All of this was clearly not needed to defeat the axis navies or secure the shipping lanes, and one could prevent the player from allocating the industrial effort elsewhere, but the absence of the historic US navy nevertheless creates a potential misperception.

But production in other areas was equally staggering. For instance, the US built almost 35 thousand four-engined heavy bombers each of which was 10 times the size of a fighter plane or light attack aircraft. This alone would be very hard to match in HOI4, even if one did not build any other types of aircraft.

These examples show why during the entire war the majority of Axis industrial output was aimed at countering the threat posed by the West. The Eastern front was a "meat grinder," where a lot of lives were constantly lost in various skirmishes - but there was a limited number of decisive battles. With the exception of the first phase at Stalingrad, the success of these battles was usually decided by the availability of tanks, artillery, and air support rather than sheer numbers of foot soldiers. Thus, if the Axis has been able to focus their industry on defeating the USSR (not to mention effects of lend-lease), simple economical scaling suggests that they would be able to defeat the USSR rather quickly. Small-arms take up a large fraction of HOI4 production (which makes sense for game balance), but do in reality not require a major industrial effort. No army in WW2 lacked guns. :)

Also, looking at Soviet production numbers in particular can be a little confusing. The extreme focus extreme standardization, where a few items were built in large numbers, with poor quality control (since the life expectancy on the battlefield was very short, they did not need to be built to last). Thus, while some production numbers of, say, the T-34 can seem impressive, it hides the fact that except for weapons and alcohol (mandated by Stalin), the Red Army (just as Soviet society in general) suffered from constant shortages of everything else. For instance, the Soviet Army was one of few who found that socks were a luxury, and soldiers had instead wrap their feet with linen. And riflemen were issued with bayonets - bot no holders creating an everlasting challenge of where to put them. Just to give to slightly comical examples.

Thus, the poor performance on the battlefield was not only a matter of inferior tactics. If you look at numbers of produced, fielded, and lost vehicles (in, for instance in Zaloga & Ness' "Companion to the Red Army"), you can see that throughout most of the war the Red Army fielded about 4 times as any tanks as the German one (with the exception of '42 where they only had 50% more due to the heavy initial losses during Barbarossa). This superiority was much greater than in the number of infantrymen, for instance. But due to shortcomings in QA, maintenance, and logistics, it did not translate into a significant battlefield advantage until very late in the war (and in large part due to allied lend-lease, providing the USSR with a vast amount of reliable trucks). As a side note, it is also fun to note that (aside from '42), the number of tanks lost in combat was roughly proportional to the number deployed, giving the Germans a 4:1 (or so) advantage on paper - but since tanks were not the main cause of tank losses, it looks like the HOI4 model actually works quite well here.

While it is difficult to illustrate this rather extensive topic with only a few examples, I hope that future HOI4 expansions will find a way to better represent the decisive impact of the Allies war effort.
 
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zhangjim

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“pointing out the limited Communist participation apparently”,there is a huge difference between game and reality.
Once you are cut off from the capital during the game, your troops will immediately lose supplies.However, the Anti Japanese base areas in history were divided into many parts by railway lines,but they still insisted on resistance.

In the game, “anti Japanese expedition” can only be used in peace,this is too divorced from reality.
Therefore, I think this should be included in the work of faction balance.

In addition, it is a typical prejudice to ridicule the Russians for using linen to bind their feet,this practice is to adapt to the cold climate in Russia,it doesn't prove that socks are a luxury for Russians.
 

TheMeInTeam

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However, the game is not very accurate in terms of the relative industrial strengths of the three factions, where the Allies - and in particular the US - have been dramatically nerfed.
France and USA were deliberately hammered, and Germany buffed, so that the outcome of the war is somewhat in doubt in gameplay terms.

If you accurately weighted the industrial advantage to history, you would need a massive skill advantage for Germany to win. AI Germany would probably fail to defeat AI France in most cases, before the crushing weight of US industry even became a factor.
 
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pnt

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I agree, but disagree. :)

On paper, the French army was very strong, but the West in general and the French in particular were not ready for war in 1939. The German army may have been relatively small in comparison, but it was prepared for the actual war that it was going to fight, which is usually much more important. I personally feel that the game does a good job in modeling the '30s.

The more important point you make is, perhaps, what does it mean for Germany to "win?" In reality, there was absolutely no way for Germany to invade the US. A transatlantic invasion (even if staged from some nearby island) is just a logistic impossibility. If the game would allow it, then it would just be silly.

However, if you consider victory to be defeating the UK before the US enters the war, or holding the Allies at bay while defeating the Soviet Union, and then seek a negotiated peace, this does fall into the realm of the possible. However, nerfing the Allies in general and the US in particular is not necessarily an advantage here. In fact, having the clock ticking while the US gears up for a full-scale war could make the war against the USSR much feel much more urgent and interesting.

So indeed, you can say that a global nerf is a solution to the "how can Germany win?" problem - but not necessarily the only, or most interesting one.

EDIT: @zhangjim, I agree that the Red Army soldier with no socks by three (stolen) watches, never knowing the time is a common caricature. Still, the Red army did adopt socks as a standard issue item some time after the war, so they must have seen some merit to it. :)

However, I did not suggest that the lack of socks was a major factor in the poor performance (for its size) shown by the Red Army throughout the war, and the excessive losses sustained in comparison with Western forces engaging in a similar operations. It was more an illustration of the severe shortages of very basic goods that plages Soviet society, including the Red Army.

A more important factor in terms of combat performance was probably that Soviet industry was so hard pressed to meet its production targets that there was essentially no production of spare parts. This in turn meant that the only way to repair equipment in the field was to cannibalize destroyed vehicles. Now, there was never a shortage of those - but it was not a reliable supply of specific parts. Thus, in addition to being poorly maintained, most Soviet planes and vehicles suffered from various technical problems that were not easy to resolve.
 
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Zer00

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I agree that the Red Army soldier with no socks by three (stolen) watches, never knowing the time is a common caricature. Still, the Red army did adopt socks as a standard issue item some time after the war, so they must have seen some merit to it.
Puttes were used by the Russians until a decade ago. Most of the combatants in WW2 used them as they can be, when properly wrapped, more comfortable than socks as they provide support and molded themselves to boots. I think the USA was the only army to go full socks in WW2.

I also don't really know where you're getting the idea that the majority of German military output did not go to the Eastern Front. It very much did and the lion's share of planes, tanks and other weapons were sent there.

I would love to see lend lease be more relevant in the game as it played an important role but it is a common (cold war) myth to save that it was a decisive factor. The German drive to Moscow was stopped before much that could turn the tide even arrived (I believe only two smallish arctic convoys had made it through by the end of the year and with losses). Significant help from the USA did arrive eventually but I don't think it really made much of a difference until 1943, after Stalingrad. So it shortened the war for sure.

At any rate, game balance seems to be what the devs want it to be: Axis winning eventually unless Allies intervene in the mainland.
 

pnt

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If you look at German production, you need to distinguish what happened before and after Speer took over in 1943. Looking at this is quite illuminating, since it does not reflect the common "myths" about the war.

Early on, Germany assumed that the USSR would be defeated easily, and even in 1941 heavy AA guns took the lion's share of the artillery output, for instance.

The main part of the German equipment was produced during the Speer era. By this time, the allies has already landed in Italy, and the bomber offensive was in full swing. About 2/3 of the German land forces on the Eastern front, so the majority of small arms, etc, was delivered there - but not by a large margin. All naval production was, of course, aimed at the allies. An interesting note is that despite popular opinion tanks did not make up a large part of German production (comparable to the tracked artillery tractors), and involved only about half a dozen factories.

The air force is an interesting example. If you look at the production integral, almost all German aircraft were fighters (20k Fw190 and 37k Bf109), even though the Luftwaffe did not deploy more than 1000 at any given time. The vast majority were built toward the end of the war as part of the emergency fighter program. However, Luftwaffe losses in the West were so high that the USAAF essentially eliminated any organized air defense by in early 1944.

I hope that these examples are sufficient to give you a flavor or where German industrial output was directed. But the production numbers are very interesting. Aside from the East/West question, they show a surprising amount of mismanagement at every level. But that is a different story. :)
 
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zhangjim

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"This in turn meant that the only way to repair equipment in the field was to cannibalize destroyed vehicles",this is purely subjective.The Germans developed a large and complex number of armored vehicles,but this can only show that they lack reasonable production planning.
During the war, the Soviets used few types of tank chassis, which the Germans thought was the advantage of the Soviets.
You can't drag your tank back to repair at all times, Israelis also dismantled the parts of the destroyed tanks to repair other tanks,this is a common means on the battlefield.
So no one really thinks the Soviet army will let people not take guns to consume German bullets, right?
 

pnt

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Standardization of production makes it possible to build more units. But in addition to making fully assembled items, manufacturers allocate a fraction of the production to spare parts - and the amount of each type of spare is made in proportion to expected wear (some components last longer than others). The Soviets produced a very limited amount of spare parts - creating critical shortages of components with the shortest mean life between failures. The Soviet AFV recovery services were the least developed among the major powers (there were, for instance, no dedicated recovery vehicles built at all since this would reduce tank production numbers). But even if this had not been the case, cannibalizing destroyed tanks does not ensure that you get the spare parts that you need. Thus, while on paper many of the Soviet designs were sound, the vehicles that were actually deployed on the battlefield were often in poor condition and performed accordingly.