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mouse707

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Another question for a 4 players game (SU-UK-ITA-GER). We're in 1939, for a 1939 scenario

We have an home-made rule imposing that the German and the soviet player can't DOW each other before 1941, 1st January.
Given this protection, the SU player has only built factories until 1939, building approximatively 150 factories and raising its capacity well above 400 PP. After that he shall certainly build only INF and interceptors until 1942.

In such a situation, what should be the initial barbarossa strategy for the german player, facing such a combination of strong IC and unlimited manpower ? (assuming that the SU player will search as soon as possible the 41 INF and will have hundreds of 41 INF at the beginning of the war)
 

Galverizer

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mouse707 said:
Another question for a 4 players game (SU-UK-ITA-GER). We're in 1939, for a 1939 scenario

We have an home-made rule imposing that the German and the soviet player can't DOW each other before 1941, 1st January.
Given this protection, the SU player has only built factories until 1939, building approximatively 150 factories and raising its capacity well above 400 PP. After that he shall certainly build only INF and interceptors until 1942.

In such a situation, what should be the initial barbarossa strategy for the german player, facing such a combination of strong IC and unlimited manpower ? (assuming that the SU player will search as soon as possible the 41 INF and will have hundreds of 41 INF at the beginning of the war)

I assume you wrote wrong and wrote that you play a 1939 scenario instead of 1936?
Then your fucked as Germany In 1936 sceanrios UK alone can get more tanks and intercepters then Germany as well. Knupp seems to have a modd that evens out the unbalanced 1936 scenario, send him a msg and get the mod maybe? Think the modd gives Germany -10% on production cost on all units and UK get -2 on free economy at start. I would also recommend that you have the rule no GOI (Guarntee Of Independence)allowed since that will halt SU a bit.
 

mouse707

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yes, 1936 scenario

Yes, it's a 1936 scenario, and we're in 1939, sorry. I'm not the german player, only the italian, but I'm trying to find solutions for my axis fellow :)

Given that in early 1941, the german player will still have an advantage, is it better to try to an early rush on Moscow and Leningrad with motorized forces, or is it preferable to go for ukrainia, and withdraw ressources from the russian player (350 factories need 700 energy per day to run, and 350 steel), hoping for some ressource shortage ? (given that to build 50 factories in 1936, the russian player has not been able to accumulate much ressources)

Or is everything lost and the only hope is to build now a special boat to refugee as soon as possible in Bolivia ?
 

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mouse707 said:
Yes, it's a 1936 scenario, and we're in 1939, sorry. I'm not the german player, only the italian, but I'm trying to find solutions for my axis fellow :)

Given that in early 1941, the german player will still have an advantage, is it better to try to an early rush on Moscow and Leningrad with motorized forces, or is it preferable to go for ukrainia, and withdraw ressources from the russian player (350 factories need 700 energy per day to run, and 350 steel), hoping for some ressource shortage ? (given that to build 50 factories in 1936, the russian player has not been able to accumulate much ressources)

Or is everything lost and the only hope is to build now a special boat to refugee as soon as possible in Bolivia ?

If the SU and UK player knows what they are doing then the game is lost before you started it.
Taking out his resources won't help much, UK/USA can supply him with what he needs. If you want to take out there resources you should let japan take out india and Indonesia which have most of the woulds rares, that would cause problem to UK and USA and hopefully SU if he is importing rares. Japan should be able to take out india right after DAnzig event unless you have some rules for them as well. And in 1941 if Japan takes afghanistan to then japs and nat china which I hope he have made puppet can attack with 100-200 inf along the afghanistan border which have lots of industries.
 

mouse707

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japan is ia :)

well, but we're only 4 players :)
so the japan is played by the IA (as the USA), with the success we have all seen many times (that is, at best a struggle for bejing during 3 years)

you're not very optimistic for us, but here is always some hope :)
 

Galverizer

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mouse707 said:
well, but we're only 4 players :)
so the japan is played by the IA (as the USA), with the success we have all seen many times (that is, at best a struggle for bejing during 3 years)

you're not very optimistic for us, but here is always some hope :)

Well since you can't attack in 1940 when SUs GDE is down by almost 50% germany will face an army that have almost the same quality as it's own. But I guess with usa as AI the allies can't make a good invasion of europe. I would place 3-4 divs on each beach in france and put them all on reserv which would make 3+3+3=9 div to defeat on almost each beach.
 
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Tanks and Aircraft, should be your keys to Russia.

Id rightfully expect russia to have high IC and 400+ 1941 divisions by war. and 50+ class 4 interceptors.

Russia is still a push over in most cases up until 42-43. If he has no Tanks then i think your stressing to much.

If he has built alot of IC prewar then he cannot have all 3, (infantry Armour Air superiority). Once you dislodge his troops let your cas an tacs do the rest.

My 2c
 
Nov 13, 2005
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I also like Phads idea of beach defence, however i usually opt for a different solution.

At out break of War with Soviets have hungarian unit in all your beach provinces (1 unit is sufficient, with 1 in the rear provinces) in the west, keep a good mobile German Force in Paris, Lille, and Kiel.

IF the allies try to land in Europe you SHOULD have complete Air superiority, just get your planes on Naval attack and once the threat is subdued hit the landed armies on Interdiction and rout them with your German Reserves.

This way you focus 85-90% of the Whermacht against Russia, leaving support roles to your minors.

Britian might have the numbers to threaten you in Europe, but as long as you have Complete air superiority Britian is nothing more then a barking dog without American Logistics and reserve Aircraft.
 

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Mighty G said:
Tanks and Aircraft, should be your keys to Russia.

Id rightfully expect russia to have high IC and 400+ 1941 divisions by war. and 50+ class 4 interceptors.

Russia is still a push over in most cases up until 42-43. If he has no Tanks then i think your stressing to much.

If he has built alot of IC prewar then he cannot have all 3, (infantry Armour Air superiority). Once you dislodge his troops let your cas an tacs do the rest.

My 2c

mighty knows this from experience ^_^

its all about ic and tanks, russia has gotta have at least 400 ic so he can be runnin 9 armor serials all the time. just go for encirclements, thats what russian infantry are good for getting encircled ^___^
 

mouse707

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ok

thanks for your posts.
However, in this kind of 4 players game with italy, the british can take all INF from all around the world, concentrating on aircraft, then have 50 INF in 1939 in africa (most of them canadian, australian etc...), and a strong air force. I'm experiencing it as an italian at the moment :)

After taking lybia, the UK could land anywhere on europe, and the german won't be able to have air superiority both on russian theatre and in the west theatre

but I think there is an option to crush the russian in early 41 with strong motorized forces
 

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mouse707 said:
After taking lybia, the UK could land anywhere on europe, and the german won't be able to have air superiority both on russian theatre and in the west theatre

but I think there is an option to crush the russian in early 41 with strong motorized forces

Guard the beaches well and Germany won't need to have air in europe. If your troops are dug down to max they won't take any damage or very little while being bombed.
 

a.d.a.m

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although UK sounds fun to address, I think I will do this one first, since it's older ;) . also it will further help players to beat my strategy because here is I think the solutions. first
If the SU and UK player knows what they are doing then the game is lost before you started it
agree 100 percent in vanilla 1936. but germans can still put up a very very good fight. first year 1936 IC is mandatory. I find that I can push 22(think 3 start a little later) of them out for the year and still maintain my supplies/good resources(don't supply italy for free, you need their help, make them give you some supply or something that will help you) slide standing army. make 3 minister day 1 1936, the minister of security -5 consumer goods. armaments minister to ic+5 industrial +10 army minister -15 supply guy. trade for money, influence italy(maybe spain) and your other allies(this is a lot of money but it needs to be done!) bulgaria I think is good to be hitting, but romania I think you can lay off of, it's hard to slide their sliders with my intended IC. be sending spies to france to steal bps constantly you need to get 2 techs from them(oil and tanks) after these stop all money actions with france(smear if you are allowed/have money! :p). Starting techs are: exactly@! this (I think these never change for any player so listen up guys :p ) 1. Agrichemistry: I.G. Farben(do both techs before doing 1938 IC, finishes just before krupp does 1936 and 1937!) 2. Basic Computing: Konrad Zuse(later use Siemens for just the 1938 and 1940 techs, konrad zuse is better for the 1941.) 3. Rear Area Repair: Opel 4. Basic Destroyer: Kriegsmarine 5. Basic Machine Tools: Krupp. IC finishes dec 12 or something 1937, you need oil from venez typically they will take a half and half trade with you for oil, I get 40 from them the first year (18 supplies and some energy) rare not much a big deal since IC will be lower. Jan 1, 1937: slide standing army, start building exactly this 4 runs of 1937 INTs. 4 runs of 1937 CAS(actually start these when Facs finish. build some supply with the rest). 1 run of convoys, 1 run of transport ships. build IC with rest/supply(you should be renegiotiating with venezula slowly as relations keep increasing and should have toned down that supply rate although not by much.(should add rules about oil ty :D ) start getting 80ish oil from them(like 34ish supplies and some energy) make 3 minister change day 1 1937: chief of staff: Armor research +5 minister of security: foreign MP/MP +10 foreign minister: ribbentrop (should burn the dissent using all available IC not going to planes so technically don't start all those builds until the dissent is gone. :D ) this fills up your production for 1937. Jan 1 1938: no dissent for you this time :D. facs should be done air bases should have been started (preferably 5 serials of 99 this can be delayed/started earlier as you prefer, but make sure opel is done with their tech first!) and you built up supply until jan 1. 1938. slide standing army(you're full now) put all your non production IC to mass upgrades(Upgrade these only! INTs, Tacs, and your 3 light tanks(only 1938 tank tech done via steal bp from france, 1938 TAc should be getting done very soon because you're going to start building them in march.) set the rest of the army to not upgrade. start 1939 inf very soon in 1938 (maybe 1937 a couple months before, exp with it, but not by many it's 1937!(http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Main_Page good for hints and tricks)when it finishes upgrade all your INF also. mar 15 1938 start building a TAC serial. change head of intel to influence +20(I would have changed it jan 1 and left dissent until event, but I am pretty sure this comes in 1937 but I am feeling too lazy to check I don't remember atm. if so change it then and burn dissent in 1937, just don't do it until you have the dissent from other ones changed, I would recommend employing this same strategy with the amor research +5 as you have more available IC overall(if you add together all the children in the world you have an army. always worry about the small things!).) I don't really remember exactly how long it takes upgrades, and is very well different by just how much you know about techs!!!!!!!! but you'll have 1939 inf when you're done =]. start building 9 inf divs(this can be done if you built supply like I said!) otherwise start at least 6 until Sept 30: make these minister changes: armament minister to IC +10(this is because you should be doing no research in production from this time check my german save to see where I am at. it can be found in the japan MP thread, date is mar. 16 1939.) chief of army: von lutwitz(many reasons look at him, most importantly you're building 9 inf it saves you IC) maybe it might be a good idea to check and see which is cheaper, taking dissent and putting the chief of army on when you start INF until the event, or waiting until the event to make the change. start building 6 Heavy cruisers, 3 1938 destroyers, 4 light cruisers(set these like you're going to be building them for a very long time, trust me it will help you! but leave the heavy cruisers with no serial seriously =]. (the children.) build supplies/if you can don't remember depends on trading. with the rest of IC. Jan 1 1939: slide central planning change head of intel IC+5 guy. Change navy leader to destroyer and transport construction -5. do not burn dissent. March 15 1939: start 1 transport plane build and build supplies. March 24 1939: chief of airforce: change these ministers chief of airforce Air superiority chief(many reasons and could do this sooner and build more ints! as you see fit to the relative skill of player playing. but remember you should be building TAC also and this gives you more reduction of IC.) chief of staff any one of these three as you prefer 1. org regain +20 2. Def+10 3. Land unit speed(my opinion that's also order of importance :D ) armaments minister back to IC +5 industrial +10, you're gonna start mad rushing in industrial techs ideally I would have made my very first tech done in mar 16 save: mot with mauser werke(you get a bp in 1939 don't rush!), next being 1939 armor(again with blueprint!)(set tanks to not ever upgrade IMO, but wait until you have more available IC to upgrade them) then next would have been last 1940 air doc with hugo. next assembly lin with I.G. Farben. then adv computing with Siemens!. lastly 1940 decryption with konrad zuse. after this your all assembly line production correct use of tech teams for this is easily distinguishable, start assembly line in this order 1. small arms I.G. farben
2. Aircraft Siemens(this would depend on if adv compute was done) 3. vehicle assembly volkswagon, I try and be doing 1939 tanks and then 1940 TAC afterword(cancel your serial of tacs after last one builds, IMO upgrade the ones built, but up to you). cancel your navy builds after two two builds each: 6 dd, 8 cl, cl ideally finish sept 15 :D. 6 heavy cruisers are done in june giving you more IC to mass supplies. cancel convoys at around 20 builds, again as you prefer I think 200 is enough(coupled with liberation of scotland just incase!) you will have to tone down INT builds and such as you go along, cas also. I currently stopped building INT at 24. I was going to mass 1940 FTR getting production line very soon. I like para for invading UK very soon, preferably 1939 if they're weak 1940 spring if they're strong(need time to bomb pretty much all of southern england taking everything from them: flak guns, infra, and airbases. ground attack or interdict as the situations call for(less divs will die or lose org very very quickly, 3 is not enough ever to defend england without air sup!) now to address russia a bit(if they have not been massing IC, and you can easily see this!) they have a massive army or airforce like you(with no docs) agree to the molotov pact and then take every polish vp(with minimal provs taken screw surrounding polish divs but most will wait in marshes and warsaw anyway.) this is to keep bel low. USA must not gear until UK falls ideally. your first limit is 35 no need for second do not go over it! it's your lifebread. liberate if you have absolutely have to! make minimum amount of DoW's and annexs, don't DoW denmark and norway, let the event come. After polish VPs are taken take warsaw pause(screw'em =]) annex poland(this I think largely depends on trade agreements and such).DoW france also with hungary ally. france takes... bah I forgot but I did know the exact amount of provs for vichy to fire + paris. can be found in your events folder.
remember you do some have some naval power also, and a lot of air power, plus italy ideally, although they may join you a bit late after some select DoW's and time to prepare more!(read italy strat) I wanted ideally 12 transport planes(1 from italy, given to me, maybe buy from it, or if they wanted it =]!!! build the 12th yourself :p. 12-16 (as you prefer =D.) level 1 para set to never upgrade. IMO never do 1940 INT doc as you will basically decide your air fate when you verse UK, fighters are better for SU for lack of range andairbases. if sovs DoW their their three cores right after vichy or are going for full annexs of finland, DoW all three cores also, as well as finland(again your navy is important) do not invade UK until 1940 this is mandatory as Sovs might DoW you, you're going to be playing offense mostly as his has so much friggin IC :p. normally you can ally all your allies at this time. except maybe finland hence the DoW(maybe not DoW see how USSR reacts to you DoWing his cores then bring them to alliance if he DoWs you). if he hasn't been being an ass with trades and massing IC, I would recommend you leave big and mighty Sovs be for a while. and try to focus more on taking UK as fast as possible, I think you can be annexing sweden and norway in 1939 also(liberate scandanavia, they will help you with land docs, promise ;) ) in 1939 with my rules, UK comes over to bug you he will pay if you put some airbases down! you have a decent navy if you group it right, I recommend. Raeder with all 30 ships. 2 dd escorting all the tps you been massing since 1937. if you decided not to scruff USSR around a bit you can take and liberate spain(after building airbases if needed! don't lib them until gib falls, don't attack gib in winter unless you are very very sure of victory! liberate something else if bel is a problem or release scandannavia and let them just be your ally. going to gib will draw more UK divs if he is trying for africa(maybe from UK also!), which italy will be deciding your fate in this, they can really really help you man, work together with germany as much as possible as italy, as everyone.) if you do decide to scruff USSR up a bit and chance a DoW, still attack spain, but be sure to constantly be aware of a DoW. Gib's probably not going to take all that long in spring with so much air and such a focus on it early on and continued. 4 1940 FTRs sometime around war start at the very least. I prefer getting the more CAS over INT because of my air general for so long. http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Main_Page read for hints and suggestions on maximizing the use of your para and navy and air, it's really a must to read through these FAQs if you take this game seriously. good gaming. I have wrote a roman again. and it's time to stop :D. anyone has any questions or comments/improvements feel free to post =]. see you in every capital in the world germany, and italy. wish you would bring that USA and JAP battle into the game, good gaming to you since BEL is not a problem for you since USA is AI w00t.
 
Last edited:

a.d.a.m

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fast moving untis for SU only, use Mot along with Mech and tank, check my other strategy threads, I have a little more detail on my opinions about them.
 

a.d.a.m

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Britian might have the numbers to threaten you in Europe, but as long as you have Complete air superiority Britian is nothing more then a barking dog without American Logistics and reserve Aircraft.

it saddens me that you say this G, I really rather liked your other suggestions, but I think you are very wrong in this. even without USA aid, UK is a powerhouse able to influe the entire game themselves. and I will explain later why I think, read my other posts maybe give me a few comments and suggestions.
 

unmerged(64512)

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adam try to not write your strategy in one imposant rock,it's impossible to read you without having eyes hurted :rolleyes:

this

is

good

if

you

put

more

spaces

:)
 

jackda

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As soviet player in 1936 campaign (indeed i only play as soviet), i always have more than 400 IC (500 rarely because its not a good idea IMO in multy against good german player) and around 450 lands (around 95% inf 41) few T34/KV (but ONLY T34/KV!) and mot/AC,so it can seem unbeatable even if everybody can do that....
BUT a good German can have around 48 pzers4 all with Tiger brigs and an impressive and experienced Luftwaffe to complete . Until 1942 , with GDE malus CCCP can hardly stop them (managed with a good german player )on clear land .The point is :if he reaches Moscow with full orga INF.....then ALL IS POSSIBLE.
IMO tanks lead and clean the land for inf massive attacks on Soviets cities (surrounded for most ,except Moscow of course) . And believe me, its not so easy for soviet to resist : YOU REALLY NEED TO PLAY BETTER THAN THE GERMAN TO AVOID 1941 BLITZ, thats why i not agree with: "if the SU and UK player knows what they are doing then the game is lost before you started it" ESPECIALY with a four players game which means that USA is lead by an useless AI!
French and US AI give the Ger/Ita big opportunities (Align Nat spain BEFORE you conquest France and you ally Italy, gives you more than 100 free inf (!) by 1941; of course take Gib,Suez,maybe Açores,then focus ALL the Axis power on the isolated Soviet.Imagine what it could happen to him with a Japan player who s puppeted AI China in 1938:woooot 200 free land units this time!!!!!).................
 

TankFist

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lol germany is the most overpowered nation in the game i dunno why u guys are worrying about russia. With central planning plus +20% ic from ministers germany can easily have more IC than russia or usa, have at least 100 fighters/ints and at least 50 armor. Most russian players find it hard to have decent IC and a big army come 41, especially armor wise because russian armor is so expensive for some weird reason.

come 41', 450 IC uber germany with 100+ fighters, 50+ armor and around 300 divisions overall is hard to hold back.
 

mouse707

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ok

to Hookah : well, with the vanilla version, I hardly see how the german player can have in 1941 450 IC, 100 fighters, 50 armor and 300 land divisions :confused:
even with central planning and the good ministers, I don't see how you can manage to have all of it at the same time

to jackda (or others :) : I have 2 questions
the first is : Moscow or Ukrainia ?
as the soviet has more than 350 factories, and has probably traded most of its ressources to build this, he should be vulnerable if the german takes the hundreds of energy and steel ressources in ukrainia. Moreover, Ukrainia is a good land for armor moves

the second is : we're in april, 1940, and our rule imposes peace between germany and USSR until at least 1st january, 1941. For the moment, we're cleaning north africa from british troops.
The german player has only 4pc chances to enter Nat. Spain in the alliance. Is it preferable to wait and try spain, but it should be long, or to DOW spain, and have a rush to Gibraltar ? (in this case, the problem shall be later, for italian, to defend spain and north africa at the same time)