Fabricating Claims... I use it a lot, and you? (also, how to?)

[Jymm]

Sorry, relative noob here.

I'm really struggling with this mechanic. I have been locked in the same 3 counties for over 5 years now. My Chancellor never manages to fabricate against the neighboring county. I tried pulling in a guy with a claim to a different county, lavished him with accolades and then pressed his claim. But once I won the battle he was just the new independent owner of that county and would not accept vassalage. None of my kids are of age yet, but I betrothed my two sons to two different under-aged female countesses and now I'm riding time. I feel really just stumped.

What determines success rate at fabricate? Or how do I successfully use the invite --> press claim trick? Is there a better way to get things moving that I've just missed? Thanks for any tips. Cheers.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I start all my games as an OPM count and, unless I am muslim, I initially expand through fabricating claims: I feel it's fair enough given the starting position.

Once I become king, which usually happens with the first character played (who always starts 16 years old via RD), I tend not to need it any more as it makes for a slow, uncontrollable and often too expensive way to expand.

 

[Zenith Darksea]

As far as I can tell, the success rate is determined by the diplomatic skill of you and your chancellor. This determines a certain yearly chance that you will fabricate a claim; say, each year you have a 10% chance to fabricate a claim, for example. Sometimes I've fabricated claims almost immediately after assigning my chancellor to do so, but at other times it's taken me ten years or more. It's really just down to luck.

 

[barny]

Waiting for five years is nothing. I somewhat suspect they decreased the rate at some time during the last patches, because I think, that it worked a bit faster last April. In my last game I often waited for 10+ years for one claim. Having a better chancellor helps of course (but it doesn't seem to get higher than about 20% per year), specially because if his skill is high enough, he might be able to get a claim on the whole duchy.

Inviting people to your court and press their claims only really works, if you make them your vassal before pressing their claim (like giving them a county or barony).

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I somewhat suspect they decreased the rate at some time during the last patches, because I think, that it worked a bit faster last April. In my last game I often waited for 10+ years for one claim.

I had not such an impression

 

[OrdepNM]

Its preety random actually. Ive seen a 20+ diplomacy chancellor sit in Britanny for 20 years and no claim, and Ive seen another chancellor sweep the entire Leon + Castille duchies with claims on all counties in under 15 years (boy was it fun pressing all those claims )

 

[barny]

Maybe I remember it wrong, then...like wishful thinking.

 

[Lessing]

Sorry, relative noob here.

I'm really struggling with this mechanic. I have been locked in the same 3 counties for over 5 years now. My Chancellor never manages to fabricate against the neighboring county. I tried pulling in a guy with a claim to a different county, lavished him with accolades and then pressed his claim. But once I won the battle he was just the new independent owner of that county and would not accept vassalage. None of my kids are of age yet, but I betrothed my two sons to two different under-aged female countesses and now I'm riding time. I feel really just stumped.

What determines success rate at fabricate? Or how do I successfully use the invite --> press claim trick? Is there a better way to get things moving that I've just missed? Thanks for any tips. Cheers.

Invite claimants from neighbouring counties (those you can beat in war) to your court. Make them your vassal by giving them land. You can either give then a county (if you're at least a duke) or nominate them as successor to a bishop (making them bishop when the old one dies) or by building a holding (very expensive) and giving it to them, making them a mayor or bishop or baron. Then, when you press his claim, he will become your vassal. Be careful only to press county claims if you're a duke. To become a duke, use the fabricate claim mechanic to win at least 50% of the de jure counties of the duchy you're in, then form or usurp the duchy.

 

[OrdepNM]

I will say forging claims is alot like fishing for some reason... If its not biting, after a while you should probably go try somewhere else.

 

[Blond_Knight]

I rarely fabricate anymore. Fabricating claims is good early on in certain regions (most notably as a count of Ireland) but expanding through marriage and inviting claimants is much, much faster.

 

[yezhanquan]

On a related note, fishing for characters that will inherit from outside your realm is possible, with you hastening the process of course. The added difficulty is that for the fellow to remain in your realm, you must give him a title equal to or greater than the one he'll inherit from outside.

 

[Kimberly]

On a related note, fishing for characters that will inherit from outside your realm is possible, with you hastening the process of course. The added difficulty is that for the fellow to remain in your realm, you must give him a title equal to or greater than the one he'll inherit from outside.

If you're patient, and the claim is inheritable, you could hook him up with a member of your dynasty. Then you could press the child's claim--when you press dynasty members' claims, they always become your vassal, so long as the title they gain is lower than your own.

 

[Jymm]

I didn't think to actually give him some piece of property _before_ I pressed his land claim. Thanks for the tip. I see a life of celibate bishopry in your future, sir...

It does seem odd to me that I can't make that conditional. "Look, I'll call forth 700 troops and go whoop up this guy you hate and turn over his lands to you, but at the end of it you have to swear allegiance." How hard is that? :blink:

I guess on the fabricate I'll just have to sit tight. My chancellor is a 17 or 18 point diplomat with a 16% chance per year. So I guess its just time. Thanks again for the help.

 

[Jymm]

By the way, this advice worked perfectly. I reloaded a couple times til my chancellor got his fabricate to work. Then I named my county claimant next in line for the bishopric of the new province I took with my fabricated claim. Executed a plot to dispose of the old unfriendly bishop, used "improve religious relations" to make that new bishop / claimant love me, and then invaded his claimed land. Voila, I'm up two counties, both of which I can use to purchase Duchies and gain de jure claims to two more. Rawr!

 

[doubleskulls]

Im curious about this, did any records of nobles forging claims on titles and sucessfully pressing them reach our days? I guess it might have happen at some moments of history and no light ever been shown on the ruse but it sounds like a hard thing to pull off. Medieval records werent exactly excel spreadsheets you can hack into and edit.

Gamewise, I do prefer to avoid it, unless Im starting as a count and I need to build my powerbase so I can sucessfully revolt. Usually I find it more interestint to bring claimants to my court and press their claims if they'll become my vassals. That and always be on the lookout for good marriage opportunities for families who have the missfortune of ending up with a sole heiress on the throne.

There are lots of instances of fairly dodgy claims being made, which largely equated to "I'm stronger so I'll take what I want, but here is an excuse so you can stop fighting". William the Conquer's claim to England, even though endorsed by the Pope, was extremely dodgy, and if I remember correctly Edward's claim to Wales and Scotland was based heavily on legends of King Arthur, as documented by Geoffrey of Monmouths History of the Kings of Britain, which is a nice piece of fiction. Henry IV didn't have any real claim to the English throne, its just no one liked Richard II. You need to remember that medieval book keeping was far from perfect, so its often impossible for us to know now whether claims were forged or not, but you can look at things that wouldn't be considered either strong or weak claims in game being used as pretexts for war.

 

[Talq]

Interesting. Thank you for taking the time to write that I thought such a ruse would be particulary easy to spot as the proper records would be kept in monasteries and castles and could be quickly consulted to spot the lies, but maybe Im thinking about the medieval judiciary system as a more efficient entity than it ever was

Well given that said castles & monesteries were frequently the source of such forged claims 'no my lord, your predecessor granted us that land a century ago', 'no village, you weren't there before us, we own the land you are on and you owe us xxx of labor services...'

There are also examples of kings saying point blank that any grant of privileges was to be remade by them & any grant by their predecessors was to be invalid unless verified by their chancellery, which in part was to shut down fraudulent claims, but also in part to claw back previous grants ('oh sorry, lost the paperwork').

To the OPs question. To some extent when I'm small, but plots, dejure claims, and inviting claimants are other ways to get land without the time & cost.

 

[Bob_the_Insane]

Personally I feel the mechanic is pretty balanced with the other mechanics in the game. When you are small it is still expensive (because your revenue is so low) but practical...

When you are big it is one of a number a strategies and not necessarily the best as it can get very expensive and getting the claim is the easy bit if the count is part of the HRE and you aren't..

Personally I feel it is fair to use in the game because the AI certainly makes use of it...

Also the fact that these are personal claims and die with the current ruler means you have a limited time to make use of them...

I do wonder how it would change the balance of the game if claims created in this manner were weak claims and so could only be pressed following the rules for weak claims.

 

[aniuby]

I'm not fond of pressing claims, especially for anything larger than a 2-3 province duchy, because while the claimant naturally has a fantastic opinion of you for supporting their claim, their heir and your heir might not get along very well at all and they end up causing trouble. This is especially true for king-level vassals who aren't of your culture, as almost every one of mine has revolted or made a general nuisance of themselves within 3-4 generations, forcing me to revoke their title (which generally tends to solve the problem).

I like fabricating claims because it allows you to sack whoever owns the title barony and appoint your own crony (i.e. same culture and hopefully same family) to rule over it. I still do it all the time as an Empire, even though it's expensive, mainly because there's no real need to burn every penny you've got on holding upgrades in single player. I much prefer to be able to appoint someone whom I'm sure will not be too powerful and will generally get along well with my heir - for these reasons I sometimes prefer claims on counties to claims on duchies, which don't allow you to revoke the titles of vassal counts within.

Of course, expansion through inheritance is the ideal and what everyone should strive for, but the odds tend to be stacked against the player (for good reason) due to everyone's insistence on "a better alliance" and the ease with which the computer gets those juicy marriage alliances to consolidate their territory the moment kids come of age. A prince/princess not good enough for your child, Mr Count of Nowhere?

 

[vwclaymore]

I would love it if this were removed (or perhaps better to just make it very unlikely to work), and have more events that grant claims inserted into the game. In the first CK, you could get claims on another noble if the publically insulted you at tournament, etc (maybe have these time sensitive, only good for a year after the insult). Maybe we have the Pope send a request to those with high piety to invade counties with heretics or excommunicated rulers in them (and give another incentive to have higher piety). Other methods, would give more flavor in my opinion.

 

[Bob_the_Insane]

I like fabricating claims because it allows you to sack whoever owns the title barony and appoint your own crony (i.e. same culture and hopefully same family) to rule over it. I still do it all the time as an Empire, even though it's expensive, mainly because there's no real need to burn every penny you've got on holding upgrades in single player. I much prefer to be able to appoint someone whom I'm sure will not be too powerful and will generally get along well with my heir - for these reasons I sometimes prefer claims on counties to claims on duchies, which don't allow you to revoke the titles of vassal counts within.

Yeah, fabricating claims on your own vassals is something I have made more use of recently to maintain order in the kingdom...

I would love it if this were removed (or perhaps better to just make it very unlikely to work), and have more events that grant claims inserted into the game. In the first CK, you could get claims on another noble if the publically insulted you at tournament, etc (maybe have these time sensitive, only good for a year after the insult). Maybe we have the Pope send a request to those with high piety to invade counties with heretics or excommunicated rulers in them (and give another incentive to have higher piety). Other methods, would give more flavor in my opinion.

I remember that from CK1... Those claims you had created, there were events after a period of time that would basically expire the claim unless you expended Prestige to maintain it...