Fabricating Claims... I use it a lot, and you? (also, how to?)

[dio]

How do you expand normally? I use a lot the fabricate claim, but it does not seem very honorable.
Do you use it as well, or you use other way to increase your realm?

I also have a question: I can fabricate claim for a single territory, how I can fabricate one for the Dutchy (or the Realm)? I need to leave my man in the capital city, after having fabricated the first claim?

 

[Battle bunny]

Often fabricating claims is the best way. Another simple way is to usurp a duchy (by getting enough of its counties, like with fabricated claims) and then using the de jure casus belli to snatch up the rest of the counties of the duchy. Claims for duchies are fabricated just like county claims, except that there is a small chance that the claim will be for the duchy instead of the county every time the event triggers, and this occurs usually with 15+ skill chancellors, but even with 20 it's uncommon.

 

[FromasterG]

I don't use it anymore. It makes the game too easy and makes expanding through marriage and claims more fulfilling. I do use it when I get super bored and powerful, though. Nothing wrong with it.

You can fabricate a claim on a duchy by having a good chancellor, placing him in the duchy's de jure territory owned by the current duke, and getting lucky. Sometimes you will get a claim on the county, and sometimes you will get a claim on the duchy. You don't have to have a claim on the county to get a claim on the duchy.

 

[OrdepNM]

Im curious about this, did any records of nobles forging claims on titles and sucessfully pressing them reach our days? I guess it might have happen at some moments of history and no light ever been shown on the ruse but it sounds like a hard thing to pull off. Medieval records werent exactly excel spreadsheets you can hack into and edit.

Gamewise, I do prefer to avoid it, unless Im starting as a count and I need to build my powerbase so I can sucessfully revolt. Usually I find it more interestint to bring claimants to my court and press their claims if they'll become my vassals. That and always be on the lookout for good marriage opportunities for families who have the missfortune of ending up with a sole heiress on the throne.

 

[dorukdorucu]

Im curious about this, did any records of nobles forging claims on titles and sucessfully pressing them reach our days? I guess it might have happen at some moments of history and no light ever been shown on the ruse but it sounds like a hard thing to pull off. Medieval records werent exactly excel spreadsheets you can hack into and edit.

Well, even if they did they wouldn't want anyone to record it would they? So, i doubt there being solid evidence to this.

 

[OrdepNM]

Well, even if they did they wouldn't want anyone to record it would they? So, i doubt there being solid evidence to this.

Well, there could be missives between lord and chancellor that were uncovered centuries after the deed or confessions of dying chancellors, etc. It seems like an unlikely probability event that not one leak of claim fabrication plots ever came to light over the centuries if this practice was even semi-usual.

 

[Sopot]

It depends, if I'm in Iberia/Sicily or a Starting Empire, I wont bother fabricating claims as I can expand easily without it.

If Im England, I can usually invite claimants quickly enough to get Wales/Brittany as dynastic vassals and gain parts of Scotland through vassal inheritance. I'll usually have to fabricate for Ireland, but that can be done once the Welsh and Bretons stop hating on me.

If I'm a vassal myself, then all I will do is fabricate claims for dutchies and weak counties.

In short, fabricating for me is situational.

 

[Heartsbane]

Fabricating claims are essential in the early game, especially when you start with a Count or Duke level character. The price isn't so bad (somewhere between 30-80 gold) and when you are an OPM your resources basically double when you go form one county to two. Keep in mind that if you have no ducal liege you can generally usurp smaller Duchies with a fabricated claim or two which will bring you to the Duke level and make you a bit safer. You can also stack claims against a single lord by fabricating more than one county claim and use the press all option to take the enite Duchy if you so wish. However, later in the game fabricating claims becomes the least effective means of expansion. Not only does the cost skyrocket (I've had to pay upwards of 1250 gold for a fabricated claim on Zeeland as England) but once you have a large realm and a full treasury but launching a war against France or the HRE for a single county is just a waste of time and resources. Much like with mercenaries, fabricated claims are important for expansion in the early game but become more of a non-option in the mid-late game. Pressing claims is the best mode of expansion other than Holy wars and you can claim whole Duchies with a single war by giving away a Barony or useless county and then pressing vassal claims. I do sometimes fabricate claims on my vassals counties if I want to reorganize my realm or make a juicy addition to my demesnes though

 

[Lessing]

Fabricating claims is a poor man's expansion. If you're an emperor, you can conquer entire kingdoms with just a claimant as your vassal. Until then, you gotta make ends meet and fabricate claims or press duchy / county claims or do holy wars. Fabricating claims is both ridiculously expensive and annoying (because of the randomness) and not a very well-done mechanic. Fabricating claims per plot makes more sense and should replace the chancellor mechanic entirely.

 

[AttilaTheFun]

I mostly use claim fabrication as a cheap way to revoke titles from ambitious/rebellious vassals. The only other time it's really useful is if you're a single duchy and can't easily invite claimants--once you get bigger, there are far more useful casus belli for expansion: holy war, de jure, or claimants to kingdoms/duchies.

I find fabrication is not really worth it for expanding, as it usually takes a long time to fabricate claims and the (usually) single county territorial gain isn't worth the time and effort.

On a related note, is there a way to fabricate claims on kingdoms?

 

[Lessing]

On a related note, is there a way to fabricate claims on kingdoms?

My spymaster told me of a plot against me to fabricate a claim on one of my kingdoms. So, maybe thats available for the player, too. The requirements for the player to have certain plots available is poorly documented and cloudy at best.

 

[barny]

My spymaster told me of a plot against me to fabricate a claim on one of my kingdoms. So, maybe thats available for the player, too. The requirements for the player to have certain plots available is poorly documented and cloudy at best.

That is a plot, I guess.

 

[Stratagyfan101]

I use it, only because I find it to be less cheesy than inviting claim holders, landing them, and then pressing their claims. I also find marriage for claims to be cheap as well, hence why I choose not to use that tactic.

 

[Iron Chariots]

I use it, only because I find it to be less cheesy than inviting claim holders, landing them, and then pressing their claims. I also find marriage for claims to be cheap as well, hence why I choose not to use that tactic.

Care to explain what's cheesy about pressing claims/marrying for claims? To me dynastic inheritance and claims is pretty much the main idea of a feudal strategy game.

 

[Stratagyfan101]

They are a bit too easy in my experience. I mean, I understand marriage for inheritance, but I never marry on the basis of pressing that claim a generation later. It just seems to easy. I in certain "house rule" circumstances I might use it, like if a female takes the throne or a succession crisis breaks out.

Inviting claim holders, landing them, and then expanding is just too out there for me. It again seems too easy. If my vassals gain a claim, or somebody flees to my court, I will press their claims (if I want to go to war for some gold) but I won't try to tie them to my realm first.

I mean, realistically they shouldn't be my vassal anyways, except for territory within my de jure realm.

 

[Beagá]

Are you playing as king or as duke and count? Because without the claim mechanics playing either of those would be a pain in the ass. If it bothers you too much because the AI doesn´t use it as efficiently as a human, then you will have to use a house rule yourself. Also the problem is that the game is too lenient with holding land. If you as a duke in France manage to get some isolated land on Italy, there should be harsher gameplay mechanisms to make keeping that land more difficult.

 

[Kimberly]

Oddly, pressing weak claims feels less cheesy to me than strong claims. When a weak claim is pressable, there is some justification to declare the current ruler unfit, at least.

 

[Zenith Darksea]

Im curious about this, did any records of nobles forging claims on titles and sucessfully pressing them reach our days? I guess it might have happen at some moments of history and no light ever been shown on the ruse but it sounds like a hard thing to pull off. Medieval records werent exactly excel spreadsheets you can hack into and edit.

Yes, actually, we do have some surviving forged claims. The Registrum of Peter the Deacon in southern Italy is full of them. Monastic archives from areas like southern Italy and Mount Athos in Greece (which are our some of our best surviving medieval document collections) contain some very spurious property claims indeed. There are also famous, high-profile forgeries like the Donation of Constantine. The Norman kingdom of Sicily was founded on the (completely fictional) basis that Roger II was restoring an ancient kingdom that had been conquered by the Arabs, whereas the island had of course belonged to the (still extant) Byzantine Empire. And so on.

You're right to say that medieval records weren't spreadsheets that you could hack into and edit. It was actually much easier than that. In a period when most people (in western Europe at least) were functionally illiterate, it was actually quite simple for a well-educated person to learn a little about the history of a place, look at some real documents issued by famous kings, bishops, and judges of the past, and then create a fake document. All you needed was a straightforward mock-up of a legal ruling that determined that a plot of land belonged to one of your ancestors, or to your monastery, or some such. In an age before textual criticism, it was really very difficult for people to figure out what was a genuine historical legal document or something that an educated person had mocked up for themselves.

 

[OrdepNM]

Yes, actually, we do have some surviving forged claims. The Registrum of Peter the Deacon in southern Italy is full of them. Monastic archives from areas like southern Italy and Mount Athos in Greece (which are our some of our best surviving medieval document collections) contain some very spurious property claims indeed. There are also famous, high-profile forgeries like the Donation of Constantine. The Norman kingdom of Sicily was founded on the (completely fictional) basis that Roger II was restoring an ancient kingdom that had been conquered by the Arabs, whereas the island had of course belonged to the (still extant) Byzantine Empire. And so on.

You're right to say that medieval records weren't spreadsheets that you could hack into and edit. It was actually much easier than that. In a period when most people (in western Europe at least) were functionally illiterate, it was actually quite simple for a well-educated person to learn a little about the history of a place, look at some real documents issued by famous kings, bishops, and judges of the past, and then create a fake document. All you needed was a straightforward mock-up of a legal ruling that determined that a plot of land belonged to one of your ancestors, or to your monastery, or some such. In an age before textual criticism, it was really very difficult for people to figure out what was a genuine historical legal document or something that an educated person had mocked up for themselves.

Interesting. Thank you for taking the time to write that I thought such a ruse would be particulary easy to spot as the proper records would be kept in monasteries and castles and could be quickly consulted to spot the lies, but maybe Im thinking about the medieval judiciary system as a more efficient entity than it ever was

 

[barny]

In an age before textual criticism, it was really very difficult for people to figure out what was a genuine historical legal document or something that an educated person had mocked up for themselves.

Yes, forgery was widespread during the medieval times. A lot of cities for example would come up with "old" documents that allegedly granted them some important rights and privileges by an old king or emperor to be recognized and acknowledged by the new ruler and a lot of those were just written by the magistrates of the cities themselves.