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TheDungen

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It'd be nice if we could fabricate claims for our vassals in cases where there are province adjecent to them that are not adjecent to us. Waiting for the AI vassal to get of his ass and fabricate some claims can be really tedious.
 
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awesome_scorpion

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That's not exactly how vassals work. Vassals are independent nations except for that they pay you money and you lead their wars and they have to join yours. Whether or not a vassal is fabricating a claim depends on what the vassal's government is up to. They aren't local parliaments that simply govern lands the parental country can't be bothered with dealing (culture, religion, overseas, etc...). They are nations who swear loyalty to thee. That loyalty does not extend to their diplomats. It simply means they have to assist you in the preset ways: pay money, join my wars. How they go about doing that is not what the parental country controls.
 
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TheDungen

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No actually they aren't that would be tributaries (which as far as I know are not represented in the game at the moment), vassals aren't tributaries, hence why they always go to war if you go to war. Vassals represent semi autonomous parts of your country hence why prussia is a vassal under poland in later start dates and france used to have a bunch of duchies as vassals. Hence why vassals from CK2 export as vassals to eu4 if your crown authority is low enough and they are powerful enough. Hence why revoking the previligia in the HRE will make them vassals. Also hence why they are always restricted to duchy rank.

And I'm not asking to be able to command their diplomats I'm asking to be able to use my own diplomats to fabricate claims for them, in places where I can't fabricate them for myself. The simpler solution would ofcourse be simply being able to fabricate claims next to vassals provinces as if they were my own but I think that those claims having to be for the vassal would be more intresting.

The point is that being blocked from waging war on the other side of your own marches is stupid, they're there to be between you and the enemy. But if they don't fabricate claims (and I almost never see vassals, even marches do that) then I still need to border my enemy somewhere in order to be able to get a claim to start a conflict, which negates the point of a marhc in the first place.
 
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awesome_scorpion

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Oh you can wage war on the other side of your marches no problem. You just need a CB if you don't want stab, war exhaustion and AE hits. One possible CB are claims. Notice how you can only fabricate claims on provinces that border yours or share a seazone with them? That's because claims also need a reason. In-game that reason is abstracted because the specifics don't matter, but the usual argument is that you have historical ties to the region and those people deserve to be ruled by their legitimate ruler (IE: you). It's kinda ridiculous to claim that a province in the middle of a country should be yours, but some border province? Sure, that even happens regularly through the Border Dispute event. That's why claims can only be fabricated on your borders.

Now on to our disagreement. You claim that you should have the right to fabricate claims on the borders of your vassals. Poland barely has any legitimate reason to govern the people of ryazan, but Lithuania with their acceptance of various russian cultures could very well argue in support of such claims. So why would it be possible for a polish claim to exist on the other side of Lithuania in the heart of Russia? Denmark/Sweden provides another example.

Now these are PU's you might argue. A legitimate argument, maybe there are some subject types for whom this doesn't apply. But the trouble is that subject type has no relevance to the size of the vassal. I simply used PLC and Scandinavia as examples because they exist in 1444 and are well known. I've had many a Russia game where I used Qasim to eat the Golden Horde + Nogai while I toyed around with PLC and Sweden. When Qasim is bigger than the Ottomans, it makes no sense for me to be able to make claims to land across that country. There are infinitely many scenarios imaginable where it makes no sense to claim land across the vassal for yourself. That vassal claiming land they themselves border is perfectly normal, but the parent country itself has no legitimate claim to that land.
 

TheDungen

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Oh you can wage war on the other side of your marches no problem. You just need a CB if you don't want stab, war exhaustion and AE hits. One possible CB are claims. Notice how you can only fabricate claims on provinces that border yours or share a seazone with them? That's because claims also need a reason. In-game that reason is abstracted because the specifics don't matter, but the usual argument is that you have historical ties to the region and those people deserve to be ruled by their legitimate ruler (IE: you). It's kinda ridiculous to claim that a province in the middle of a country should be yours, but some border province? Sure, that even happens regularly through the Border Dispute event. That's why claims can only be fabricated on your borders.
Let's assume that since I'm actually bothering trying to tell them what they should change about their game that I've played more than one hour of this game and know all this already shall we?

Now on to our disagreement. You claim that you should have the right to fabricate claims on the borders of your vassals. Poland barely has any legitimate reason to govern the people of ryazan, but Lithuania with their acceptance of various russian cultures could very well argue in support of such claims. So why would it be possible for a polish claim to exist on the other side of Lithuania in the heart of Russia? Denmark/Sweden provides another example.
That's my point but I should be able to use my political clout to claim that ryazan should be part of lithuania. Hence giving me as their liege a reason for war protecting the intrests of my subjects. It's stupid that I should have to annex my subjects in order to justify wars on their other side. If I want to claim land should rigtfully belong to one of my subjects why shouldn't I? People have been suing such excuses for centuries.

Now these are PU's you might argue. A legitimate argument, maybe there are some subject types for whom this doesn't apply. But the trouble is that subject type has no relevance to the size of the vassal. I simply used PLC and Scandinavia as examples because they exist in 1444 and are well known. I've had many a Russia game where I used Qasim to eat the Golden Horde + Nogai while I toyed around with PLC and Sweden. When Qasim is bigger than the Ottomans, it makes no sense for me to be able to make claims to land across that country. There are infinitely many scenarios imaginable where it makes no sense to claim land across the vassal for yourself. That vassal claiming land they themselves border is perfectly normal, but the parent country itself has no legitimate claim to that land.
I'm not saying YOU should be able to claim (or even take) land of their other side I'm saying I considered that at first then decided that fabricating claims for yourself on the other side of a vassal made no sense and faricating claims for your vassals was a much more elegant solution. That's why I'm suggesting that you can fabricate claims for them, using your diplomats to forge claims sayng they have the right to a territory that fulfills the criteria for them being able to fabricate a claim.

Congratulations You obviously havent even read the post.