Wait, what? I thought it was a result of a battle system change in patch 1.2(.1), and was only made very glaring after 1.2.2 halved the casualty rate.
Extensive combat testing in 1.22, and why combat number are so skewed
- Thread starter anomalacaris
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Nice one!
And i wondered why Poland/Commonwealth always got annihilated by their neighbours. Last game, they were entirely conquered by the Teutonic Order
I had the feeling that the third def. idea (the morale bonus) was the most crucial to get early on, now there is proof. Thank you!
And i wondered why Poland/Commonwealth always got annihilated by their neighbours. Last game, they were entirely conquered by the Teutonic Order
I had the feeling that the third def. idea (the morale bonus) was the most crucial to get early on, now there is proof. Thank you!
We don't' know whether this bug has been present from start or from 1.2. I for one believe that it was introduced in the 1.2 patch as I remember early game battles pre 1.2 to be quite balanced, but I'm not sure.
The fact is that most of the complaints about the huge early game casualties seem to have originated from 1.2, hence my opinion about it being caused by 1.2 .
The fact is that most of the complaints about the huge early game casualties seem to have originated from 1.2, hence my opinion about it being caused by 1.2 .
One effect of fixing this is that keeping up in Military Tech is going to be even more essential than it is now unless the effects are nerfed. If you could beat a less-teched coutnry with the same pips 2:1, you might now be able to do so about 4:1. Additionally if Discipline is changed to affect defense as well as offense, it have the square of the effect it does now (i.e. at least double), as if it weren't already uber enough.
Damage scaling from dice would also be interesting to understand; it appears from these numbers that it does not in fact work like it was reported to do in EU3.
Damage scaling from dice would also be interesting to understand; it appears from these numbers that it does not in fact work like it was reported to do in EU3.
To those wondering if the bug has been present since release: aren't there still players who have avoided updating their game to 1.2? Why not ask one of them to test it?
They said they rebalanced it in 1.2 and people started reporting odd behavior then. It would indeed be interesting to pin it down, but I'd bet money that they simply knocked something out of whack in 1.2 - and then tried to fix it with the patch.
I agree that these issues were likely not present upon release, but it is still important to know for sure. If this problem has always existed, there are major balance implications to consider.
Well, from what I know...
Military Tech upgrades and Power both affect only the offense, so chances are once those get fixed armies will be doing even more damage. So if anything Paradox's change to make battles 50% less bloody was a step in the right direction.
Discipline getting defense fixed might offset that, though, potentially enormously.
Military Tech upgrades and Power both affect only the offense, so chances are once those get fixed armies will be doing even more damage. So if anything Paradox's change to make battles 50% less bloody was a step in the right direction.
Discipline getting defense fixed might offset that, though, potentially enormously.
1.1 combat was fine. Everything worked as intended. 1.2 changed something. Someone left out a decimal or a number and it all went to hell. The "testers" only tested early game, as in they would start a new game to see the problem, see huge casualty rates, so they halved damage which made late game combat even worse.
So according to what Kongoman did, what happened is, in 1.2 infantry fire became a fixed 2 instead of the intended scaling modifier. since that number is simply a multiplier, no matter the erra, infantry did 4 times the damage of the roll. Early game when you have no tactics to offset damage, you Gibbed an army with a high roll. The infantry fire early game is supposed to quarter damage to offset this. Now in 1.2.2 they "halved" damage. So in effect they changed the bugged fixed number from a 2 to a 1. So the problem was still there. And when the fire rating should be higher late game (2) it is now at a fixed 1. so we saw much longer battles with dozens of casualties. As the modifier was supposed to offset the large number of pips and tactics.
I am asuming this works exactly the same for shock numbers and all unit types. I cant imagine they have a seperate line of code for those, and would have only made the mistake in 1 place.
So late game when artilery fire should be 4+, it remains a 1. Cavalry shock also gets upto the 4+ range. Also staying 1 the entire game. This in all is what killed late game casualty rates.
And as everyone seemed to notice, Mid game seemed to even out and be fine. That's because mid game, they are supposed to be at 1. when arty becomes available I'm pretty sure it starts with a 1 rating in the tech screen. It isnt until later techs that it's supposed to get bumped. tech 10 or so, pretty much all modifiers should list at or near 1 in the fire/shock modifiers in the tech screen, and as such combat was perfectly fine.
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anomalacaris, Paradox should offer you a job for this, seriously, good job man. I could never understood, why Poland kept losing many battles with all the Quality ideas and large amount of artillery.
Thanks a lot again.
Thanks a lot again.
How is Poland specifically affected by this? Is it because of the +33% cavalry power not working? I reckon people proved that even pre-1.2 cavalry was useless above a certain MIL tech level. Was it broken since game release?
So does this cause the ping-pong wars? I've been trying to convince myself it was working as intended but it did feel like something was off, this would explain a lot.
The roles and special effects of different unit types are not affected by this bug.
Cavalry still flanks. Cannon still attacks from the rear. Infantry is still cheap.
Late game cavalry not being as effective as infantry is an intended feature. Thats why infantry has 10 pips and cav has 5. This bug does however compound that feature, and makes it even worse, since cav looses the x4 multiplier.
So until this gets patched. You want to build your armies based on where your mil tech is.
If infantry fire and shock list as less than 1 in the tech screen, you want infantry heavy armies because this bug buffs them.
If every unit lists a 1 on the tech screen, then build a good combined arms balanced army.
If cavalry shows a 4x shock modifier but only a .25 fire. Build dragoons because they actually get buffed in fire, and still do additional flanking damage.
If cannon show a 4x fire modifier, build DEFENSIVE arty when there is a choice. As all the defensive bonuses apply as normal where the fire damage will be quartered of what it should do.
Cavalry still flanks. Cannon still attacks from the rear. Infantry is still cheap.
Late game cavalry not being as effective as infantry is an intended feature. Thats why infantry has 10 pips and cav has 5. This bug does however compound that feature, and makes it even worse, since cav looses the x4 multiplier.
So until this gets patched. You want to build your armies based on where your mil tech is.
If infantry fire and shock list as less than 1 in the tech screen, you want infantry heavy armies because this bug buffs them.
If every unit lists a 1 on the tech screen, then build a good combined arms balanced army.
If cavalry shows a 4x shock modifier but only a .25 fire. Build dragoons because they actually get buffed in fire, and still do additional flanking damage.
If cannon show a 4x fire modifier, build DEFENSIVE arty when there is a choice. As all the defensive bonuses apply as normal where the fire damage will be quartered of what it should do.
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Nah, Fire and shock are supposed to start at 0.25 and 0.5. But because of the bug they seemed to be set at 1.0 for the whole game no matter the tech progression which explains why casualties were so bloody early game. I never really saw anyone post about late-game battles. But what I would guess is that casualties would start to be severely reduced because of the increase in military tactics to lower ones casualties but lack the fire and shock modifiers to do damage.
The -50% less bloody battles was to fix the early game but it was a band-aid fix because it causes even more problems late game due to the lack of casualties.
