Extensive combat testing in 1.22, and why combat number are so skewed

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TallenSentinel

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Thank you for the rigorous math and empirical facts, not opinion.

Just to confirm, the takeaway is to avoid trying to gain +Combat modifiers and to instead focus solely on morale and discipline modifiers and generals with more fire pips?
 

Novacat

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No, the takeaway is to wait for the coming hotfix.

Which likely wont come. Paradox never hotfixed HOI3's problem, it had to wait until a full patch. Chances are it will be fixed in 1.3 that Paradox already has in development.
 

grisamentum

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Really bad for the combo Poland/Aristocracy/Quality heh :(

Makes me feel a lot better about my abortive Polish war against Sweden last night...

Sigh, Paradox. Just sigh.

I mean, it was kind of obvious that combat was totally broken the whole time. Even in 1.2.2 I'd see battles of like 10k vs 10k where one side was instantly wiped out in the first day. And then slowly transition to 50k vs 50k battles that last for months.

Anyway, nice work anomalcarsis. I'll buy you an e-pint.
 

Taelyn

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I'd be wary of throwing this kind of fix in a hotfix. It can throw off all kind of balance. We could end up with some pretty strange games if this is fixed without testing.
 

grisamentum

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The combat system did not have bloody early battles and bloodless late battles before patch 1.2. In my opinion, this is an indication that removing the 50% damage reduction in hotfix 1.2.2 is enough to restore the balance.

It absolutely is not. Currently it's a huge nerf to particular nations, especially ones that use shock a lot (which implies cavalry).
 

Beefpiston

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The combat system did not have bloody early battles and bloodless late battles before patch 1.2. In my opinion, this is an indication that removing the 50% damage reduction in hotfix 1.2.2 is enough to restore the balance.

It's not a matter of balance, it's a matter of an entire mechanic not working. Even if one could argue that casualty rates are balanced that ignores the larger issue of the Quality line basically not working (except for the Discipline boost at the end) as well as many important National Ideas (Prussian infantry, Polish cavalry, etc).
 

wolfing

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The combat system did not have bloody early battles and bloodless late battles before patch 1.2. In my opinion, this is an indication that removing the 50% damage reduction in hotfix 1.2.2 is enough to restore the balance.
eh? that's the wrong indication you got there. 1.2 was the problem, not 1.2.2.
This looks like an easy, but not quick, thing to fix. Easy because it's probably a missing variable in some formula. Not quick because they need to see what effects would this change have, and probably adjust some numbers, and check again.
 

Saladin Osmanli

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Thanks, and cheers for the link E4Z. It's part of what makes me wish Paradox would make combat mechanics more visible, I love to get into the nitty-gritty of such things and knowing what they are would help to test them out and check to see that they are indeed WAD and avoid such things like the HOI3 scenario.

But Paradox must have good reason for keeping it to themselves, otherwise they would likely share it somewhere.
Copyright issues? Fear of corporate espionage by competitors stealing their ideas/code for their own games?
 

Varyar

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Copyright issues? Fear of corporate espionage by competitors stealing their ideas/code for their own games?
Also perhaps a desire to see seekers of optimization to do some trial-and-error rather than just reading a manual.
 

Dr. B

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They make the game so their decision as for what to tell us. Paradox are very nice about community interaction and listens to feedback (especially serious feedback like anomalocasis' here or what DDRJake produced). There are game-makers who sell game and forget about it. I am sure developers will eventually adress this.

In the meantime unfortunately, we pay them to play the game, and I cant really play now without knowing that there are atleast some pretty serious flaws in the core game, so I'm putting the game on hold, wich is a shame. So I hope this is taken care of fast and with some fatherly reassurance from the developers that everything will be alright.
 

bleakie

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It absolutely is not. Currently it's a huge nerf to particular nations, especially ones that use shock a lot (which implies cavalry).

It's not a matter of balance, it's a matter of an entire mechanic not working. Even if one could argue that casualty rates are balanced that ignores the larger issue of the Quality line basically not working (except for the Discipline boost at the end) as well as many important National Ideas (Prussian infantry, Polish cavalry, etc).

eh? that's the wrong indication you got there. 1.2 was the problem, not 1.2.2.
This looks like an easy, but not quick, thing to fix. Easy because it's probably a missing variable in some formula. Not quick because they need to see what effects would this change have, and probably adjust some numbers, and check again.


I have to apologize for not adding the premise of fixing the weapon modifiers. What I actually mean is that after fixing the weapon modifiers and combat ability, reversing the -50% base damage in 1.2.2 is likely to restore the balance. It is just reversing the combat system to pre-1.2 state, with the exception of the morale aspect.
 

CrabHelmet

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The amusing things about this is that it means all-infantry armies are always the best composition once you reach tech level 12 and unlock Free Shooter Infantry.

EDIT: Technically speaking artillery in the back row has some tiny, negligible effect, but the cost/benefit ratio definitely, definitely favours all-infantry armies.
 

Bellygareth

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The funniest part is that -50% damage doesn't entirely offset the problem that this bug introduced. Battles at the start of the game are still around 50% too bloody :) (0.25 mod going to 1).
 

grisamentum

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Copyright issues? Fear of corporate espionage by competitors stealing their ideas/code for their own games?

Copyright protects things like the in-game text (descriptions in events, decisions, etc), the unit models and textures, the music, the map (the particular image of it, not "map of world"). It does not protect something like the method of resolving a battle or the formula for calculating how to do so.

You can't copyright the rules of a game. If someone wants to rip off the entire ruleset to your game, there's nothing stopping them except that it's actually quite a lot of work to turn a set of rules into a game.