Extensive combat testing in 1.22, and why combat number are so skewed

[anubisfike]

So basically combat is broken almost entirely? How does this even make it out of the workplace in such a bad state? I mean, it's like it wasn't tested at all or even looked at twice. I'm amazed.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Combat ability does not work? Damn.

 

[jockedahl]

This is like if DICE made sniper rifles shoot sub-machinegun bullets.

I really hope it is hotfixed before the weekend multiplayer game I'm in.

 

[qijiang_ok]

I hope this information is useful for you. I have done some test in 1.1 patch. Here is my formula for damage:
Final Roll = Base Roll + Modified Roll
Final Damage = Base Damage * Attacker Strength/1000 * Base Modifier * Weapon Modifier * Attacker Discipline / Defender Tactics * Combat Ability
The relation between Base Damage and Final Roll follows the Logistic Function, which I have verified with MATLAB. This relation has changed some in 1.2 patch, which you say is 12, 16, 20, 24, 32, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, but I believe it should still follow the Logistic Function.
As for Base Modifier, I just found that it was 0.5 in shock phase and 1.0 in fire phase for infantry in Western Unit Tech 3 in 1.1 patch.

 

[MiniaAr]

Combat ability does not work? Damn.

Really bad for the combo Poland/Aristocracy/Quality heh

 

[RogerWilco]

Very nice results. Thank you.

 

[Novacat]

This reminds me when it was discovered that defensiveness/toughness did not function in HOI3 at all... luckily, it was easily fixed with mods but it required a complete overhaul of Paradox's units and techs in order to work properly...

 

[DDRJake]

This reminds me when it was discovered that defensiveness/toughness did not function in HOI3 at all...

Care to elaborate on that?

 

[mgoetze]

This is highly disturbing. Noone should go for Quality now, ever - Offensive is the way to go if you want better troops.

Otherwise, PARADOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOX!!

Yeah, instructions how to enjoy EU4: Take offensive. Get forced march. Find out it is bugged and you sometimes can't turn it off. Rip your hair out in frustration when you are trying to forced march and some stupid little vassal/ally stack attachs to yours and resets your movement at its slower pace. Start over as a merchant republic.

 

[Novacat]

Care to elaborate on that?

HOI3 units have a ton of stats, but only 5 are relevant to the topic, Softness, Hard Attack, Soft Attack, Defensiveness, Toughness. Softness was a 1-100 percentage value and just determined weither soft attack or hard attack was used. Toughness was used as a defensive stat for attacking units, and defensiveness was used as a defensive stat for defending units. Basically, each point of defensive stat would essentially allow you to evade one attack, or rather, give you something like an 80% chance of evasion. Attacks made without any defensive stat to counter them only had a 40% chance of evasion. The screwup happened in defines, which, due to an input error, the chances were 0.8% evasion if you have defense points left and 0.4% if you have no defensive points left. Needless to say, it rendered Defensiveness/Toughness completely irrellevant stats, despite a large number of technologies existing to improve them.

Thus, all it was needed to do was change the defines values in order to get everything working, but, when it was fixed it resulted in a lot of undesired combat behavior because combat was entirely built under the unintended assumption that there was no defense, just attack and HP. Thus unit stats had to be completely overhauled.

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

Care to elaborate on that?

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?521991-True-Effects-of-Defensiveness

 

[mic-dk]

Well done anomalacaris! Finally some hard evidence that something is indeed broken in 1.2 (and possibly before too?).

I too hope for a quick solution, or at least a workaround, but I also fear this will have a rather large impact.

 

[DDRJake]

...Thus, all it was needed to do was change the defines values in order to get everything working, but, when it was fixed it resulted in a lot of undesired combat behavior because combat was entirely built under the unintended assumption that there was no defense, just attack and HP. Thus unit stats had to be completely overhauled.

Thanks, and cheers for the link E4Z. It's part of what makes me wish Paradox would make combat mechanics more visible, I love to get into the nitty-gritty of such things and knowing what they are would help to test them out and check to see that they are indeed WAD and avoid such things like the HOI3 scenario.

But Paradox must have good reason for keeping it to themselves, otherwise they would likely share it somewhere.

 

[Beamed]

Was this reported to devs yet?

 

[xcrissxcrossx]

anomalacaris, this study is excellent. You've done the EU4 community a huge amount of good.

 

[Bragi]

Yes, right in to the "Bug Reports".

EDIT: We should maybe found a kind of community-olympus
Suggestions: DDRJake (Zeus), anomalacaris (Poseidon) hehehe

 

[McGregg]

Oh, boy... So when we were saying there was something weird with battles... (but no one at that time couldn't explain it) we were right...

I wanna laugh at myself... so many hours testing different army ratio and I was clueless...
It also explain why my army (4:1 to my favor) was decimated... the general died on the first day of battle...

If proven right, we should get a free DLC for that (well at least anomalacaris should)

 

[Beefpiston]

If proven right, we should get a free DLC for that (well at least anomalacaris should)

The community? No. Anomalacaris getting a free DLC I would completely agree well. Hell, if Paradox doesn't maybe we (the community) should gift it to him on Steam.

 

[Tom013]

Yes, right in to the "Bug Reports".

EDIT: We should maybe found a kind of community-olympus
Suggestions: DDRJake (Zeus), anomalacaris (Poseidon) hehehe

Hmmm... I don't know. Maybe DDRJake with his magical exploits and ultimate sneakiness is more of a Atë (goddess of mischief) or a Hermes (sometimes named the god of trickery and cunning)?

 

[Beefpiston]

As for this bug itself, if it's true, this really is a "game-breaking" bug for me (not to use the common forum hyperbole). That's a big enough issue to put me off playing the game until it's fixed, which I imagine can't be simple. Like the HOI3 bug mentioned upthread, I would imagine all the combat changes were playtested with the bug in place and will need to be rebalanced.

I wish we had access to old patches because I'm curious if this has been in the game from the start or if it was introduced with the Morale revamps since 1.2?