Extensive combat testing in 1.22, and why combat number are so skewed

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hauptman

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Whomever wrote the system was an absolute genius. The current Developer implementation is absolutely moronic.


With simple numbers the tech changes where covered quite well through an entire game span. Early reliance on on melee weapons SHOULD make the fire phase very low casualties. the .25 modifier gave just enough casualties to cover what archers or crossbows an army would keep on hand, but the great meat of any army was the melee line. Infantry also where there to absorb the damage not really cause it. So with cavalry having it's shock modifier at 1 where infantry was .5 was very accurate. This gives cavalry the kill potential to be useful.

Then late game, when you reach certain techs, say "line infantry" all of the sudden infantry gets a huge boost to fire rating, and with "bayonets" (the actual in game tech names) they got a boost to shock. This meant infantry would do more damage in respectivly the fire and shock phases to represent the new tactics and weapons.

Your moronic implementation of the great system therefore says that if both sides are the same tech level they get no actual increase in damage. But then we add tactics into the mix (i do not remeber tactics being in eu3) which slowly increases through techs to reduce damage taken. This worked perfectly in theory to reduce what would have been HUGE casualty rates late game by offsetting the fire and shock bonuses somewhat. But your focus on differences ruins everything. So if infantry is similar, it therefore gets no bonus, BUT IS STILL HAVING ITS DAMAGED REDUCED BY TACTICS!

So THIS explains late game warfare being "dozens of casualties" and early game being "insta gib" It was implemented WRONG.

Not to mention by only applying it as a difference rendered all combat bonus modifiers such as "the goose step" completely worthless. so with line infantry fire at 2, the goose step should make prussian fire 2.5 (25% infantry combat bonus) then tactics at that time should be about 3.0, thus reducing the damage more than the fire rating would have increased. this would give Prussia a great boost against all those lesser countries. But your implementation only looking for differences says since both are even, so no modifier means there is nothing for the goose step to actually apply to. Now what happens when prussia actually falls behind a tech. And now the enemies fire rating is higher. That makes the goose step a MALUS! Now we are going to increase prussia's DIFFERENCE by 25%.

I seem to remeber a lot of threads in EU3 talking about this change. and how horrible of an idea it was. But some new dev thought the change was good to make early game fire phase actually do damage. I never bought an expac for eu3 mainly for that reason.

You had a great system. Stop ruining it and use it as intended.

die roll + pips = damage. damage is multiplied by fire/shock rating and special ability modifiers (combat ability/discipline). damage is devided by tactics/discipline. IT SHOULD BE THAT SIMPLE.

I cant believe I'm trying to teach a dev how his own game should work.
 
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Comes Imperii

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Not to mention by only applying it as a difference rendered all combat bonus modifiers such as "the goose step" completely worthless. so with line infantry fire at 2, the goose step should make prussian fire 2.5 (25% infantry combat bonus) then tactics at that time should be about 3.0, thus reducing the damage more than the fire rating would have increased. this would give Prussia a great boost against all those lesser countries. But your implementation only looking for differences says since both are even, so no modifier means there is nothing for the goose step to actually apply to. Now what happens when prussia actually falls behind a tech. And now the enemies fire rating is higher. That makes the goose step a MALUS! Now we are going to increase prussia's DIFFERENCE by 25%.

I seem to remeber a lot of threads in EU3 talking about this change. and how horrible of an idea it was. But some new dev thought the change was good to make early game fire phase actually do damage. I never bought an expac for eu3 mainly for that reason.
I agree with everything you said and I am as much angry about this developer implementation as you but how about the combat ability bonuses see my post here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?729228-The-Ultimate-Combat-System-thread
 

Cavalry

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This problem with casualties could be easily avoided if tactics is applied in the same manner; i.e., no effects when on the same level. I guess now we'd have to see how they redesign it in 1.3 first though (pretty certain no change before then would be feasible at this point).

the problem with casualties is with the weapon modifiers or something else, the combat ability is just some extra bonus of some countries.
The tactics is introduced in EU3 as a way to reduce late game casualties of advanced countries, while still keep their weapons deadly against lesser countries.
 

Cavalry

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Your moronic implementation of the great system therefore says that if both sides are the same tech level they get no actual increase in damage. But then we add tactics into the mix (i do not remeber tactics being in eu3) which slowly increases through techs to reduce damage taken. This worked perfectly in theory to reduce what would have been HUGE casualty rates late game by offsetting the fire and shock bonuses somewhat. But your focus on differences ruins everything. So if infantry is similar, it therefore gets no bonus, BUT IS STILL HAVING ITS DAMAGED REDUCED BY TACTICS!

You had a great system. Stop ruining it and use it as intended.

die roll + pips = damage. damage is multiplied by fire/shock rating and special ability modifiers (combat ability/discipline). damage is devided by tactics/discipline. IT SHOULD BE THAT SIMPLE.

.

Yes they introduced tactics in mid EU3 patch to make the effect that casualties rate between advanced countries is lower or unchanged overtime, while casulties between them and lesser countries will be huge.
But now they try to use weapon modifiers a role as tactics too!
 

Novacat

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I'm going to play JAII for a few days until this is all sorted out. That's a classic that never goes out of style.

It will be a few weeks before this gets sorted out, and thats an optimistic estimate.
 

RaptorCommander

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If that is the case with Prussia, I think we're going to see that blob, or the potential for it to blob. It'll be winning wars it probably shouldn't be in, simply because they can slaughter the other country's army. Then again, the AI is kind of dumb (not the level of a player) so it probably won't take advantage of it.

I'd be interested to see what they can do to alleviate the issue, so I'll be waiting to see what happens.

7 years war....anyway they should do something soon so whole idea trees and some countires NI are not effectively useless.
 

MrFailSauce

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Based on these data, and since it looks like this won't get a hotfix, it seems like there are some conclusions we can draw about which ideas to get while we wait for 1.3

Basically, leader bonuses are huge and morale/discipline/tradition are fairly important. My best idea choices for maximizing land battle effectiveness:
#1 Offensive Ideas: it buffs leader fire and leader shock plus you get discipline bonus and prestige bonus.
#2 Defensive Ideas: the military tradition bonus and the morale bonus.
#3 Innovative Ideas: the reduced decay rates on tradition and prestige. Esp. tradition, makes it easier to maintain higher levels of tradition.

Why is tradition important? Directly: The morale bonus. Indirectly: It substantially improves general stats when you roll a new general and better leaders dominate when quality is such a small effect.
What is prestige important? Not really as important as tradition/discipline but it does buff your morale.
 

unmerged(303856)

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7 years war....anyway they should do something soon so whole idea trees and some countires NI are not effectively useless.

A developer (I think it was Johan) said that combat would be reworked in 1.3, but did not specify any more than that. Hopefully they will actually fix the combat ability issue along with the others, but nothing has been said that wasn't incredibly vague. Also, 1.3 isn't expected to be ready until late October or early November, so it will be weeks before these problems are resolved.
 

Hans Lemurson

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Specifically, the 4:4 dice roll resulting in 64:62 damage ratio.

Basically, combat ability from national ideas and the Quality tree is next to useless. Did someone forgot to * by 100 when they did the formula?

It would be funny if was another percentage-conversion error like in HoI3.
 

semaphore

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the problem with casualties is with the weapon modifiers or something else, the combat ability is just some extra bonus of some countries.
The tactics is introduced in EU3 as a way to reduce late game casualties of advanced countries, while still keep their weapons deadly against lesser countries.

Did you bother to actually read what you quoted? I didn't even mention combat ability. The problem with casualties is the fire/shock modifiers not keeping pace with the casualties reduction of tactics. What I said addresses that, I don't know why you're dragging EU3 out.
 

Cavalry

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Again, for those who wanna skip to results:
- Weapon modifiers indeed affect damage when there is a difference. Actually, it also decrease damage you take when you have higher weapon modifier than enemy.
- Combat ability works to increase weapon modifiers, regardless of whether there is a difference in weapon modifiers.
- HOWEVER, both the damage increase and damage reduction effects appear small. (You certainly won't see anywhere near 10% damage difference for 10% combat ability)
- tactics and discipline act as totally independent multiplier to damage.

So we can say every numbers is correctly the Paradox way.
But now infantry, cavalry, artillery is like the same, because the weapon modifier is not important like before.
Before year 1444 cavalry has double shock damage compare to infantry. Now they do 50% more damage to infantry, compare to infantry vs infantry, and the same damage to enemy cavalry as infantry (0% bonus)
And the 1444 infantry has 4 times fire powers than before.

I don't know what Paradox try to fix in 1.2; because the combat is already fine tuned long in EU3. Tactics is used to control casualties rate overtimme, weapon modifiers to control the damage and separate infantry/cavalry/artillery. Now they mixed it up.
 

hauptman

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Even ignoring the other half of that statement like you did... I still stand behind it 100%. They have a great system, and they implemented it so poorly. No other word but "moronic" can express how I feel about thier choices.