Explorations in Strategy - Italy at War

[Myth]

n.y.o: I will conquer Suez later, with armed force.

Maj. von Mauser: The problem with Romania is that it's army is pretty big. I'm actually very fortunate that they didn't intervene in my scuffle with Greece.

Piko: Thanks, and will do!

quetzilla: Yeah I too thought that Yugoslavia dragged on a bit, though I think you could see me skipping over more by the end and focusing on the more important stuff. I don't want to get too bogged down in the operational details really. And yeah, the problem with Greece is that it's a problem.

Baltasar: Actually no, it isn't. It isn't a quick way to victory, but I didn't actually really plan for that. Being the cynical bastard I am, a major part in my war calculations is combat experience of all types (and particularly land). If I wanted a quick war, I'd have landed at Athens and in Chalcidice (sp?), the triple peninsula where the other Greek VP is.

The Balbinater: I'd argue with the assumption that you can only concentrate on one at a time. With thirteen projects going simultaneously I'm doing fairly well I think, though I'm just concentrating on a handful of units (CLs, CVs, inf) and industry. Also, to call a war land-based is basically to state a given. Wars have to be land-based, there's no such thing as a war that isn't. People live on land, after all. Every other branch of the armed forces needs to, in the end, influence events on land. I'm still operating just in the littoral regions of the Med and other seas: wherever my armies operate, my CAGs can reach and thus my naval power can make itself felt. Furthermore, these are wars of resource conquest, so that I can then build up a bigger army to help me in my imperial ambitions!

Baltasar/Maj. von Mauser: I don't know enough about the Italian invasion of Greece to really comment much.

billy bob: Yeah, it does seem a bit silly, especially with the Italians having a major navy and all.

Stuyvesant: Well as I explained to Baltasar above, it's almost basically a haunting by choice given that all the VPs Greece has are accessible directly from amphibious landing. I just wanted some more combat experience! Also, to answer your question about the north: no.

 

[unmerged(32135)]

I think you are making a mistake by not ending the Greek war as quickly as possible. You are too close to the total eruption of conflict (Soviets and Americans join in) to have your best divisions mired somewhere in Greece, and you still run the risk of Rumania getting frisky.

I was also a little disappointed in Campioni not being able to take out the meager Greek fleet in one go. Weren't you? I hope your naval victories don't all come against fleets in port!

Not trying to sound negative! You are really doing well overall, and your writing style is excellent. Keep up the good work!

-- Beppo

 

[Enewald]

Arent Greece´s only vp´s athens and thessaloniki?

 

[unmerged(87183)]

this greek campaign is how it should have went in real life. combination of land/sea/air attack instead of just a zerg from albania...though mussolini also had to consider the possiblity of a direct confrontation with the royal navy...

I was a little goofed, Sebastiano Visconti Prasca, the local commander on the Greek border told Mussolini that he needed only 3 (!) divisions to invade Greece. However he wasn't actually involved in drawing up the plans.


In real life Mussolini should have done a Land/Sea/Air attack. It would have been quick and efficient, and would have provided alot more prestige then a normal land campaign (even if completely successful) would. As regards to the Royal Navy, I think that this confrontation should have been seeked in the invasion. Italy had a superior Naval force, compared to what Britian had there at the time, however some timid actions negated this. If Italy would have sent it's fleet out in full force during the invasion of Greece, I think they would have been able to overcome any resistance the British would have been willing to put up.

 

[BlitzMartinDK]

exactly : Willing! that is about guessing what the opponent is thinking!
To guess what he is doing RIGHT NOW is hard enough..But guessing what he MIGHT DO, IF..., and then doing so without complete knowledge of where the royal navy has what forces...Not to mention, that the strengt of many ships, especially carriers, was untried....
IF mussolini had invaded, he would effectively have tied his fleet to protecting BOTH the beachhead AND the supply-ships. Maybe he didn't fancy THAT at all!
Besides of wich..the last major invasion in the med was...Gallipoli? ..that didn't go to well!

 

[Myth]

Beppo: Too close to the total eruption? Germany hasn't yet even conquered France! I've still got a good year at least until anything happens. Plus, I'm hardly going to be mired. As for Campioni's performance, I've yet to really do any naval doctrine so that explains the arguably poor performance. That'll be sorted out later.

Enewald: Yes, both accessible from the sea, so if I had wanted to I really could have ended the dispute in an afternoon.

Maj. von Mauser: Joint operations are always fun, yes.

BlitzMartinDK: True, true. Which is why I wanted to fight Greece on my terms rather than on its. If Greece had the capability to threaten my convoys, it needs to be conquered!

I'll try to have an update for tomorrow evening!

 

[unmerged(169228)]

Somehow doubt that the Italians could have pulled of an amphibious landing at Greece.The Regia Marina was outdatedand no match for the British Mediterranean fleet and RAF (Taranto anyone?). Ironically battleships often lead to fewer engagements, since they are too expensive to risk losing. Add to this that even the landing at Albania was troubled.

And now finally on-topic: nice update Myth, have fun in Greece .

 

[unmerged(87183)]

I think people are making the erraneous assumption that Great Britain would have sent a Naval Taskforce to support Greece alone.

If from the beggining the plan to invade Greece was a massive combined arms Maneuver, Greece would have recieved no help from the Allies at all. As for naval capabilities, the Italian Navy was light years ahead of the Greek Navy. We are going on the performance (poor) of the Italian against the Greeks, thinking of the real life statistics. The Greek Army started out with a low morale, to defend the homeland yes, but the morale and spirit only intensified once they saw the poor Italian Performance, and British Aid arrived. However, if right from the start a competent invasion was launched from Albania, and a Sea Invasion mounted on Athens itself, taking the capitol quicky, the morale would have fallen, and Greece would have fallen much sooner.

The British would not have sent support, Naval, Air or Groundwise as it was clear that Greece would fall quickly. Thus the Italian Navy need not have worried about British interference, as the British would not have been willing to sacrifice their navy for the Greeks alone.

In OTL, the Italian invasion was so poorly planned, that Greece was able to stop it, and launch an offensive of it's own. Britian saw the Greece might be able to hold, and was willing to send British troops to the nation to help. Once things got bad, England this time had an incentive to send naval support, to evacuate British troops, and whatever Greeks were able to gain a passage.

When looking at an alternate history, you cannot base things solely in events that happened after the said event, in this case, the Invasion of Greece by Italy. Note this is the opening invasion alone, not the subsequent defense afterword.

Here we are assuming that the Italian Navy went out in full force, both to attack Greece, but also to defend the waters around it. They would have had Naval Superiority. Again, this is assuming certain people made some good decisions, instead of some hasty ones.

And Gallipoli is irrelevant. That was a completely different plan, and a completely different nation. In this case the Entente thinking that it could defeat an empire by the sole act of parking some Battleships outside of it's capitol. In the actual plan, there was not plans for a land assault, that only came later, after the origional plan had failed.

 

[Baltasar]

Intelligent decisions was something almost unheard of off the Italian military leadership during WWII. From the invasion of Somalia onward right through to the miserably failed attacks on the British in Egypt, the Italian commanders were not worth their titles.

Even if someone inside the Italian HQ had had the brains to plan a decisive campaign against Greece, it's not sure whether the fleet and air forces involved would have sufficient fuel and spare parts for such an operation.

 

[teamgene]

Intelligent decisions was something almost unheard of off the Italian military leadership during WWII. From the invasion of Somalia onward right through to the miserably failed attacks on the British in Egypt, the Italian commanders were not worth their titles.

Even if someone inside the Italian HQ had had the brains to plan a decisive campaign against Greece, it's not sure whether the fleet and air forces involved would have sufficient fuel and spare parts for such an operation.

They were smart enough to believe the allies broke the enigma code, the germans sure never caught on.

the only problem with the italian army was that they were fighting WW2 with WW1 equipment. This led to poor morale and everything else that follows.


Still doing a great job Myth!!!

 

[The Balbinater]

the only problem with the italian army was that they were fighting WW2 with WW1 equipment. This led to poor morale and everything else that follows.

exactly my point about why its necessary to concentrate so much on the regia marina when those resources could have been used to upgrade equipment for the army.

think of how much equipment could have been gotten were the resources of littorio, vittorio veneto, and roma been applied to the army instead...

after all, the regia marina was already a very powerful force even before those ships were built. and just because a navy isnt expressly designed to take on the royal navy doesnt mean it isnt powerful... the royal navy is in a class all by itself )))

 

[Myth]

FlyingDutchie: I think I will have fun in Greece, thanks!

Maj. von Mauser: Interesting stuff. Can you recommend any book on the Italian invasion of Greece? English language, of course.

Baltasar: That's a bit harsh. The Italians did have some good commanders. I understand that Roatta was reasonably effective in Yugoslavia, and Messe was quite good as well and gave Monty a good few hard times.

teamgene: Thanks!

The Balbinater: Hey, don't worry. The army will be getting its share of love. It takes a lot longer to love a navy than an army.

I'll try to have that update for tonight, guys! Also, try to cut back on the historical discussion a bit, hmm? This isn't the history forum, after all.

 

[womble]

Keep up the good work, Myth. Having futzed around with the demo, lurked in the forum for a week or so and felt a bit disappointed after all the hype, your AAR was the breath of fresh air that wafted my mouse cursor to the "buy" button...

 

[BlitzMartinDK]

I think people are making the erraneous assumption that Great Britain would have sent a Naval Taskforce to support Greece alone.

If from the beggining the plan to invade Greece was a massive combined arms Maneuver, Greece would have recieved no help from the Allies at all. As for naval capabilities, the Italian Navy was light years ahead of the Greek Navy. We are going on the performance (poor) of the Italian against the Greeks, thinking of the real life statistics. The Greek Army started out with a low morale, to defend the homeland yes, but the morale and spirit only intensified once they saw the poor Italian Performance, and British Aid arrived. However, if right from the start a competent invasion was launched from Albania, and a Sea Invasion mounted on Athens itself, taking the capitol quicky, the morale would have fallen, and Greece would have fallen much sooner.

The British would not have sent support, Naval, Air or Groundwise as it was clear that Greece would fall quickly. Thus the Italian Navy need not have worried about British interference, as the British would not have been willing to sacrifice their navy for the Greeks alone.

In OTL, the Italian invasion was so poorly planned, that Greece was able to stop it, and launch an offensive of it's own. Britian saw the Greece might be able to hold, and was willing to send British troops to the nation to help. Once things got bad, England this time had an incentive to send naval support, to evacuate British troops, and whatever Greeks were able to gain a passage.

When looking at an alternate history, you cannot base things solely in events that happened after the said event, in this case, the Invasion of Greece by Italy. Note this is the opening invasion alone, not the subsequent defense afterword.

Here we are assuming that the Italian Navy went out in full force, both to attack Greece, but also to defend the waters around it. They would have had Naval Superiority. Again, this is assuming certain people made some good decisions, instead of some hasty ones.

And Gallipoli is irrelevant. That was a completely different plan, and a completely different nation. In this case the Entente thinking that it could defeat an empire by the sole act of parking some Battleships outside of it's capitol. In the actual plan, there was not plans for a land assault, that only came later, after the origional plan had failed.

And I think you are assuming TOO much
First off, in this game, britain DID NOT come to the rescue (no Guarantee??)

In the real world, they had to calculate with a real risk, and real deaths..so maybe the italians were a bit too cautious? Who knows, what they were thinking?
Normal procedure for commanders is to fight the last war, and not the current one -So therefore gallipoli had a place in the italian command thinking.

In the real world, you would ALSO need to protect shipping to North Africa, and sicily, and all of the italian coastline! (including Rome!) from possible bombardment by a few british BC's : If you tie half, or 2/3rd of the fleet to greece, and an invasion there, with supplies and all..will the rest be enough to protect the important dockyards, factories, AND the palace?

Yes (in real life) the planned invasion from Albania did'nt work : The Italians didn't suprise greece as much as hoped, and were delayed early on by some heroic defenders.. giving more loss of surprise...And more time to defend the next point..And a plan that doesn't plan with the enemy fighting back is not a good plan
Wether or not the british would have helped, or not..Who knows? They HAD made a political commitment to greece..but they also promised Poland, and Tjekkoslovakia..And failed on those promises...

 

[Nikolai II]

I think people are making the erraneous assumption that Great Britain would have sent a Naval Taskforce to support Greece alone.

[...]
The British would not have sent support, Naval, Air or Groundwise as it was clear that Greece would fall quickly. Thus the Italian Navy need not have worried about British interference, as the British would not have been willing to sacrifice their navy for the Greeks alone.

In OTL, the Italian invasion was so poorly planned, that Greece was able to stop it, and launch an offensive of it's own. Britian saw the Greece might be able to hold, and was willing to send British troops to the nation to help. Once things got bad, England this time had an incentive to send naval support, to evacuate British troops, and whatever Greeks were able to gain a passage.

Actually, to simplify things: Greece didn't want England's help. They could keep the Italians down, and wanted to keep it an internal affair between them and Italy.

Churchill, looking for more fronts in WW2 just as in WW1 decided that UK should go help them, because then they could bomb the Ploestji oilfields from Crete, without even needing to save Greece. (Which of course would have been a bonus.)

As for alternate (but not AAR) history, if we assume that UK nevertheless doesn't help Greece, then that means that forces are not withdrawn from Africa. So while Italy takes Greece, they are thrown out from Africa before the Germans have time to send additional forces.

-

Here, however, in this AAR, we have an Italy that has not yet fully committed to the Axis cause (and has a more truly impressive navy, with more combat experience) - so in the AAR it makes sense that UK hesitates at pushing Italy to Germany's side.

 

[Myth]

womble: Awesome! Paradox should put me on commission.

BlitzMartinDK: Yeah, it's pretty well known that amphibious operations are the most complex bastards of all.

Nikolai II: I basically agree with you.

Update coming up!

 

[Myth]

The Year Italy Joined the World War
Part 2: Operation Titus Quinctius Flamininus II, February 11 – March 5, 1940

The period of February 10 to March 5 saw first hope that Gambara’s corps would be decisive in its exploitation of the empty space before it, then worry as it found itself in an increasingly hostile situation and then finally near despair for a few hours as all of Gambara’s work seemed greatly threatened by Greek offensive action. In the end, it seemed to remain a deadlock, notwithstanding limited Italian action in the north, that would only be broken by reinforcements.

By the 14th of February, Gambara’s corps had secured a considerable bridgehead in central Greece and continued its expansion. Messe was sent swinging along the northern coastline of the Gulf of Corinth toward Mesalongi and Astakos. Caracciolo di Feroleto and Nicolosi had moved northward, the former occupying Gardiki and the latter pushing beyond it to Trinala and the heart of Thessaly. Frattini, whose objective was Lamia, had run into the first Greek area of resistance in the area. However, it seemed likely that he would put to flight the Greeks in a short while. Every omen pointed toward Gambara’s corps continuing its successful advance.

Gambara’s corps pushing into Greece.

Meanwhile, in the north Roatta began a limited offensive of his own, after being pushed back in a handful of places. He ordered Scattini and Bitossi to hold his eastern flank while he pushed toward with Giorgis and Mancinelli in Albania, their western flank anchored on the Adriatic Sea. The Greeks had pushed into Albania and taken Vlore, a Greek victory Mussolini was unwilling to let go unpunished. Thus the Greek invaders were attacked by a force twice as strong, the two Greek brigades being assaulted by four Italian brigades. At the same time, all situational reports emanating from frontline headquarters noted that the Greeks were moving considerable forces southward. Not only was Roatta not active enough to hold the Greek army in place, due to his comparatively few forces, but a counterattack was likely to materialize in the south.

The battle of Vlore and the neighboring situation.

Only three days later came news that shook the entirety of Europe. France had surrendered. After a long, grueling campaign of some four months, Germany had finally overpowered its enemies in the west. Germany occupied northern and western France while leaving a rump government ruling the rest of France from Vichy. Italy supposedly made certain minor territorial gains for its benevolent neutrality in the next traditions of raison d’etat and realpolitik, including Monaco, Barcelonnette and Briancon, but the Vichy regime seemed reticent about actually ceding these territories. Meanwhile, Frattini’s attack on Lamia, even supported by Caracciolo di Feroleto, began to founder on superior Greek numbers, which now totaled six brigades to their four. Elsewhere, Nicolosi had nearly reached Trinala and Messe was involved in a dual battle for Mesalongi and Astakos with a Greek division.

France surrenders! And the situation in the south.

The Greek counterattack began on the 20th. It fell on Frattini, who was not only still busy at Lamia but was holding the vital artery of Amfissa that linked the port of Piraeus to Gambara’s spearheads. These Greek divisions attacking did so from Lamia, thus also becoming relevant to that defensive battle. To mitigate matters by some bare extent, Vlore fell to the Italians on the 20th, with a three-to-one casualty rate in favor of the Italians. Mancinelli immediately began pushing toward the abandoned but fortified town of Ioannina. This hardly impacted the battle for Amfissa though, which became so serious that Frattini abandoned his own push on Lamia, having taken just over eight hundred casualties in that fight, as opposed to just over seven hundred Greek deaths. By the 24th, Nicolosi was withdrawing from Trinala and marching southward to reinforce Frattini, in the hopes that Frattini would hold out long enough and that a single division would suffice to save Amfissa.

The situation in Greece on the 24th of February.

Messe, too, had been encountering difficulties in his twin battles for Mesalongi and Astakos. However, by the 27th he had achieved a surprising reversal of fortune and had not only halted the Greek advance on Mesalongi but pushed them away from Astakos as well. Altogether the battles cost some five hundred and seventy Italian lives, as well as those of one thousand one hundred Greeks. This victory was somewhat negated by Frattini’s defeat at Amfissa the next day, and the prospect that Gambara’s corps would be cut off from supply and even defeated in time. The little consolation concerning this defeat was that Nicolosi was close by now and might reach Amfissa in time to hold the Greeks, and that they lost a good hundred more men than the Italians did: five hundred and forty to four hundred and forty. Nicolosi lived up to his promise, arriving mere hours after Frattini’s defensive lines finally broke, and immediately halted the Greek advance. Gambara’s corps was safe. In the north, meanwhile, events were moving slightly faster. Scattini and Bitossi had gone onto the offensive themselves, attacking Greek inroads into Illyria at Veles. Also, with Romania quiescent, Bastico began moving portions of his army southward. Half of it remained on the Romanian border. The other half, the new corps of three divisions commanded by Ago, was temporarily placed under Pintor’s command for a special project.

The wider situation of the war, on March 5th.

The war had slowed down during the last week of February as the Greeks made their presence felt in the south. Nevertheless, Roatta’s limited offensives in the north were a first step in redressing the balance. The decisive stroke would, however, come from Ago’s borrowed corps.

 

[unmerged(169228)]

Greece is going down, good job. Seems that the Greek-Albanian border is a b*tch in this game too.
Usually use Bulgarian divisions to batter through the Greek defence when playing Italy myself . Must admit that your plan has some more finesse .

 

[unmerged(63715)]

Good to see a new AAR by Myth. I've started reading this some time ago but I have only caught up.

First of all, congratulations on your achievments so far, though I wonder how much of the success of the Turkey-campaign was actually the work of an incompetent or buggy AI instead of a highly able human brain. To tell the truth, I am under the impression that you advance much more recklessly than in the former AARs of yours and I suspect the reason for this to be a rather weak AI.

Secondly, thank you for your relative naval focus. It should prove intersting, especially for someone like me, who is so land-focused that I rarely manage to put any fleet to good use.

Now that this is out of the way, good luck in Greece and may Ago be with you. We all love secret operations, don't we.

 

[Piko]

Nice update, though your situation in Greece is still quite precarious, it seems the Greeks don't have enough military power to keep you from ultimate victory, therefore I'm anxiously awaiting more difficult campaigns such as the battle for the Med and Africa with Great-Britain.
Nevertheless, keep up the good work!