Exploration vs Administrative ideas for Ottomans' 3rd idea group

[LastSalian]

I can't make my mind whether I should pick Exploration or Administrative next.

If I pick Administrative, I will expand faster through Asia, but will not be able to colonize Siberia, Asia and Africa. If I pick Exploration, will delay coring on Asia, and some colonial nation could might protectorate eastern Asia and Indonesia before me.

What would you recommend for a WC game?

BTW, my first 2 ideas were Diplomatic (to diplo-vassalize Arabic peninsula) and Defensive (just to spend that excess of mil points).

 

[delpiero1234]

Defensive was a mistake.
Administrative rocks.

 

[MiniaAr]

I can't make my mind whether I should pick Exploration or Administrative next.

If I pick Administrative, I will expand faster through Asia, but will not be able to colonize Siberia, Asia and Africa. If I pick Exploration, will delay coring on Asia, and some colonial nation could might protectorate eastern Asia and Indonesia before me.

What would you recommend for a WC game?

BTW, my first 2 ideas were Diplomatic (to diplo-vassalize Arabic peninsula) and Defensive (just to spend that excess of mil points).

For a WC game it's probably too late for Exploration (i.e. blocking early colonisers) as you would have needed to take it as your first idea group.
If you want to colonise Siberia, Asia and Africa, Expansion will be enough but you can pick it as your fourth idea group and take Administrative as your third, which will allow easier coring of Persia/India and farther.

 

[radco85]

My usual order is:

Expansion (for expanding into India + dat CB + colonist + merchant + extra diplo relations)
Administration (just the first two, for reduced coring)
Religious (Those Shiite provinces can be tough to convert, even with 100% piety)
Offensive (Force march)

The rest is situational, depending what is happening at the time. I prefer to keep military ideas for later so I can stay ahead on military tech.

 

[grand_Turk]

I recommend that you choose Aristrocracy- Innovative- Diplomatic- Offensive- Administrative- Defensive- Economic- Naval ideas respectively. It's a good combination. You can also make different combinations choosing from among them. Expansion ideas aren't so useful for the Ottomans I think. You don't need to colonise arid lands and barrens. I myself won't waste my time to colonise Africa. My first aim is always to conquer the whole Europe continent. Which is most fun. If you want to conquer Asia, you can choose the expansion idea as well. Yet again choice is yours.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ottos can block Muscovy just by declaring on them while having mil access in Uzbek (or maybe Sibir by that point). Preferably get a superiorty war, kill their troops as they walk into your lands, then let 1 unit up in Uzbek step on their colony just before you're ready to negotiate peace. Colonies get insta-occupied and are extremely low war score, so you can grab it easily. Bonus points for sniping it when it's almost done.

For a WC game though your real priority is breaking Europe ASAP. You can just protectorate to the east if you manage that, and by comparison using the colony snipe or "release Perm" method on Muscovy is easy.

 

[Bibor]

OT: I never realised how MANY provinces there are in siberia to colonise. OMG. Forty two. 42. Dat number.

 

[LastSalian]

Thanks, guys. I finally made up my mind and will take Administrative and then Expansion.

Calls my attention that no one picks Diplomatic as first idea. I really like it to be able to diplo-vassalize Arabian peninsula and North Africa, and the extra diplomat and reduced claim fabrication. Now with 1.5 it makes more sense as I suppose I will be able to diplo-vassalize nomads too

Also is it really worth to take Administrative as 2nd idea? I saw coring Levant, Egypt and Mesopotamia takes like 3 years or less, alternating wars with Mamluks and Qara Qoyunlu, so my expansion is constant.

Likely will start a new game for 1.5, so double checking

 

[grisamentum]

Also is it really worth to take Administrative as 2nd idea? I saw coring Levant, Egypt and Mesopotamia takes like 3 years or less, alternating wars with Mamluks and Qara Qoyunlu, so my expansion is constant.

Yes, it is worth it. Coring times increase as you get larger.

 

[grand_Turk]

If you choose diplomatic as your first idea group you will probably fall behind in diplomatic technology since the Ottomans have a very rapid expansion so that they need more diplomatic power to annex their neighbours entirely. That's why I always choose aristocracy first, giving me bonuses similar to those of diplomacy idea group in the early game. Both aristocracy and innovative boost my technological advancement; thus, I can develop my tech while still conquering a lot. In my current game as Ottomans,for example, I'm the most advanced nation despite my expansionist policies and conquests broadly spanning three continents.

 

[ikkiks]

Defensive was a mistake.
Administrative rocks.

All my WC playthoughs (Italy, Ottomans and France) had Defensive as 2nd idea. As Ottomans, you already have a discipline boost, so a morale boost is really good. Fort defense helps against both enemis and rebels. -50% Land attrition is great, it reduces your losses in your never ending wars, also reducing your WE gain as attrition is a huge factor in that. I'd rather have a leader siege bonus than any other, after a while your wars get easier and easier, making leader fire or leader shock not as important. So, this is not a mistake.

For a WC game it's probably too late for Exploration (i.e. blocking early colonisers) as you would have needed to take it as your first idea group.
If you want to colonise Siberia, Asia and Africa, Expansion will be enough but you can pick it as your fourth idea group and take Administrative as your third, which will allow easier coring of Persia/India and farther.

You don't have to block colonizers anymore. Exploration is a great idea for the casus belli against pagans and conquistadors (which are required sooner or later). Not a good 3rd idea tho, that much is true. Administrative is by far the best choice as 3rd idea in a WC.

If you choose diplomatic as your first idea group you will probably fall behind in diplomatic technology since the Ottomans have a very rapid expansion so that they need more diplomatic power to annex their neighbours entirely. That's why I always choose aristocracy first, giving me bonuses similar to those of diplomacy idea group in the early game. Both aristocracy and innovative boost my technological advancement; thus, I can develop my tech while still conquering a lot. In my current game as Ottomans,for example, I'm the most advanced nation despite my expansionist policies and conquests broadly spanning three continents.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Diplomatic tech only bonuses are in naval, trade and colonization. It doesn't help at all to annex anyone. Maybe you're mistaking diplo tech for diplo relations/reputation.

 

[grommile]

Also is it really worth to take Administrative as 2nd idea? I saw coring Levant, Egypt and Mesopotamia takes like 3 years or less, alternating wars with Mamluks and Qara Qoyunlu, so my expansion is constant.

The Levant, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Arabia are all in your culture group, which brings a sizeable discount to coring times.

 

[grisamentum]

If you choose diplomatic as your first idea group you will probably fall behind in diplomatic technology since the Ottomans have a very rapid expansion so that they need more diplomatic power to annex their neighbours entirely. That's why I always choose aristocracy first, giving me bonuses similar to those of diplomacy idea group in the early game. Both aristocracy and innovative boost my technological advancement; thus, I can develop my tech while still conquering a lot. In my current game as Ottomans,for example, I'm the most advanced nation despite my expansionist policies and conquests broadly spanning three continents.

Except that Diplomacy group actually saves you Dip points with Flexible Negotiations, and you shouldn't even be spending many at first because of easy it is to manipulate Balkan and Middle Eastern vassals. Taking Aristocracy is a total waste. You should never take it, ever.

And you should always be the most advanced nation if you are Western, Eastern, or Ottoman against AI. That's not much of an accomplishment. Especially as Ottomans, when you start with a 12 year old 5/5/6 god-king. There's no "expansion versus advancement" problem like in EU3.

 

[grand_Turk]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Diplomatic tech only bonuses are in naval, trade and colonization. It doesn't help at all to annex anyone. Maybe you're mistaking diplo tech for diplo relations/reputation.

I was talking about the diplomatic ideas by which you can have shorter claim fabrication time , diplomatic reputation, extra diplomatic relations, reduced war exhaustion cost, and removal of stability hit caused by breaking royal marriage etc...

 

[LastSalian]

Just took a quick look at 1.5, and indeed Diplomatic Idea group is more recommended now as you can again diplo-vassalize nomads and mid-size nations like Morocco

The Levant, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Arabia are all in your culture group, which brings a sizeable discount to coring times.

That's why I'm not sure if taking Administrative as 2nd is worthy. You don't seem to need it at the beginning with Ottomans as you have plenty of cores and claims of provinces of the same culture group.

 

[ikkiks]

I was talking about the diplomatic ideas by which you can have shorter claim fabrication time , diplomatic reputation, extra diplomatic relations, reduced war exhaustion cost, and removal of stability hit caused by breaking royal marriage etc...

I guess you're mistaken then. If you want to have those bonuses, you must take a diplomatic idea. Not a military one. Falling behind on diplomatic tech won't hurt your expansion, in fact, it won't matter at all. But falling behind on military tech hurts, even more on the early game where each tech gives you huge bonuses, such as military tactics and new units.

 

[grand_Turk]

Aristocratic ideas and diplomatic ideas gives similar bonuses such as extra diplomat, and cost of reducing war exhaustion. Thus, you can do without choosing diplomatic ideas as your first idea group. You can choose it later. Not to mention 10% military tech bonus of Aristocratic ideas.

 

[grisamentum]

Aristocratic ideas and diplomatic ideas gives similar bonuses such as extra diplomat, and cost of reducing war exhaustion. Thus, you can do without choosing diplomatic ideas as your first idea group. You can choose it later. Not to mention 10% military tech bonus of Aristocratic ideas.

You should never spend Dip points on reducing war exhaustion.

 

[grommile]

Aristocratic ideas and diplomatic ideas gives similar bonuses such as extra diplomat, and cost of reducing war exhaustion. Thus, you can do without choosing diplomatic ideas as your first idea group. You can choose it later. Not to mention 10% military tech bonus of Aristocratic ideas.

The important DIP point consumption bonuses from Diplomatic Ideas are not WE reduction cost reduction, but extra diplomatic relations and cheaper unjustified claims.

 

[ikkiks]

Aristocratic ideas and diplomatic ideas gives similar bonuses such as extra diplomat, and cost of reducing war exhaustion. Thus, you can do without choosing diplomatic ideas as your first idea group. You can choose it later. Not to mention 10% military tech bonus of Aristocratic ideas.

Like I said, military tech makes a huge difference early on. Diplo tech doesn't. Later on, 10% mil tech bonuses means nothing when the only thing holding you from getting that is a 15 years ahead (-150%). You won't ever get behind in mil tech later, never ever. So this bonus isn't that great. In the other hand, getting bigger early on making your snowball roll makes you so much stronger than any idea bonus could ever give you.

You should never spend Dip points on reducing war exhaustion.

In a WC game, you have to do it. Just because you won't ever be at peace. Every time you're at peace, you're losing time towards your goal and time is your ultimate enemy in a WC.