Experience & National units

[potski]

Yes, becuase Kampfgruppe Nord performed well in 1941 ... oh no, they were beaten fairly easy. Or Totenkopf's actions during Barbarossa were the took few loses ... oh no, hang on, they performed poorly aswell.

Again, look at the Waffen SS actions during the 41 - 43 period. They were, on the whole rubbish compared to their reputation, of course, exceptions exist, like at Kharkov.

So no, judging by statistics, they were not as successful as the res of the Heer, even before 1943, and then, after 1943 it got even worse. So how would you code that into a game? A division that performs midly, often defeated or takes needless casualties, but then, when manpower runs low, it gets even worse, taking the role of a fire brigade.

Revisionism much? What a load of manure...

Performed poorly? Beaten? Are we talking about the same universe? Are you sure you're not confusing this with a Soviet campaign you've played?

How is advancing all the way to Lengingrad "beaten"? (a decision had been taken,btw,to siege the city,not storm it) :rofl: By that rationale the Kiev encirclement was a huge defeat for Germany, nearly ending the war. To say nothing of the fact that Army Group North performed its task with the smallest amount of tanks attached by far and that its only Armored formation, the 4th Panzer Army was reassigned to Army Group Center after the Baltic countries were secured. The rest of the advance towards Leningrad was done without tanks.

As for the 3rd SS's performance, you again must have had your opposite glasses on since the spring 1942 Demyansk pocket of 5 depleted infantry divisions + 3rd SS were not annihilated by the Soviet forces that numbered over a dozen divs, fresh divs at that.

If anybody needs to take a look at history,it is you my friend. Your bias is showing.

Hilarious. Gigalocus refers to Kampfgruppe Nord, which was formed in Norway and became the 6th SS Gebirgs Division "Nord" (6th SS Mountain Division North), and you go on a rant about Army Group North.

What he is referring to is this:

July 1941 German & Finnish units invade Soviet Karelia. SS-Nord assigned to German "Norway Army" with unit strength: 9,505. Assault on Soviet positions at Salla, after 2 attacks in which 5 SS battalions are skewered, the Soviets counterattack. Soldiers of the SS-Nord panic, abandon their weapons and run from the battlefield, suffering 86 killed, 232 wounded and 147 missing. The "Rout at Salla" becomes evidence for Heer officers that racial and ideological paragons do not automatically make good soldiers - only adequate training and preparation does. SS-Nord eventually rallies and participates in the failed drive to interdict the Murmansk railway at Louhi.

Army Group North was almost entirely an Heer unit, only 3rd SS Division Totenkopf, which was in Army Reserve, was part of the Waffen-SS. This unit, comprised initially of SS Concentration Camp Guards, was brought forward late in the campaign through the Baltic States:

SS Totenkopf ran into the concrete fortification of the Stalin Line, where "their losses and lack of experience led them ... to miss favourable opportunities, and this ... caused unnecesssary actions to be fought." Totenkopf, after this brief and violent experience of real combat, was returned to "Reserve", where it could vent its spite on the civilian population.

[From "Barbarossa" by Alan Clark. The sentences in quotes are taken from Gen.Manstein's description of the campaign]

An elite is a relatively small dominant group within a large society, which enjoys a privileged status envied by individuals of lower social status

There is no doubt the SS was an "elite" group - they were given special privileges, and increasingly as the war progressed got the best equipment. But there is no evidence that they performed any better than Heer units. Indeed, most reasonable observers would suggest that, in general, they performed worse, and if that equipment had been given to the Heer's Panzer Divisions the war might not have gone so badly for Germany.

Perhaps HOI3 should have an Event for Germany, "Hitler goes with the SS: Rename several infantry divisions with no experience and average leaders as SS Panzer Divisions, give them an ARM Bde and give them priority for all armour upgrades."

 

[daemonofdecay]

There is no doubt the SS was an "elite" group - they were given special privileges, and increasingly as the war progressed got the best equipment.

Not to stick my nose where it doesn't belong, but that last line is the real key to the argument. Potski is hitting it on the head: the SS got a good rep because of their priority for new equipment and their special place in german propoganda.

The best way to handle this is by keeping things as they were: if you want to make your SS divisions elite units, make sure they are prioritized for updates, and give the more brigades/regiments and more costly brigade/regiments.

Done and done.

 

[unmerged(56754)]

Not to stick my nose where it doesn't belong, but that last line is the real key to the argument. Potski is hitting it on the head: the SS got a good rep because of their priority for new equipment and their special place in german propoganda.

The best way to handle this is by keeping things as they were: if you want to make your SS divisions elite units, make sure they are prioritized for updates, and give the more brigades/regiments and more costly brigade/regiments.

Done and done.

I've already said this on page 2, but I got no praise!

But there we have it, we've come to a conclusion. Elite units are already confirmed out. But names will be in, or you will atleast be able to rename them, and when you, click the prioritise button. No lets close this thread !

 

[unmerged(105989)]

I've already said this on page 2, but I got no praise!

But there we have it, we've come to a conclusion. Elite units are already confirmed out. But names will be in, or you will atleast be able to rename them, and when you, click the prioritise button. No lets close this thread !

anybody else getting a sense of deja vu, almost like this thread has happened once before?

Gigalocus and Potksi have it right. Just prioritize them for uprgrades, with the new brigade system, give them your best stuff, and rename them to what you want. Personally, I'm planning on building the uberlegion of doom consisting of Maus tanks armed with nuclear missiles.

 

[koontz]

"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded."

 

[Piggy]

"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded."

I dont know if you're trying to be funny or are making a point, either way is in very poor taste...

National units are out, no point talking about it, the way this topics going it will be closed.

What I think would be neat is any unit that hasnt ever seen battle (been bloodied) have a penalty. Sure experience sorta did this, but with countries that have the standing army slider you got a decent amount of free experience, which isnt really accurate. Plus experience gain was fairly slow unless the unit got it to start with, like sliders did...

so I would like to see a base level, adding in any experience as well as subtracting if its "green".

Throwing a green unit into battle should have a risk, despite its level of training its still yet to be truly tested in real battles and should have a penalty/risk associated with it.

 

[unmerged(63189)]

I also think Experience should boost a unit both in defense and offense.

and what experience did so far was increase offense and defense by up to 50% (moddable)

 

[Alexander Seil]

Not to beat a long-since-decomposed horse, but since the thread is here (and if it wasn't, there would be another one like it)...

On thing to consider is that the national unit idea clashes with custom divisions rather badly. National division = a combination of brigades no other nation employs, equipped according to the nation's unique technological capacity. That should pretty much do it, shouldn't it? This angle wasn't explored previously in this thread, btw. All you could do in HoI2 was rename and prioritize, but HOI3 actually gives you the *ability* to *make* your divisions unique by employing unique combinations of brigades.