Experience & National units

[koontz]

More experienced divisions should have higher org and morale.

Really hopes that national units will be in hoi3.

Iam wondering what uk france and usa for an example have for national units? Russia will have their Guards and Germany their waffen ss.

And how will this be implemented? By events like mod 34 for an example. Others ideas?

 

[Zaku]

National units? I don't think they are necessary. Just build an armored division with 1 heavy tank bde 2 med tank bde and 1 mech bde, and name it to 5th guards tank div, or 3rd waffen ss div, etc.

 

[Alex_brunius]

More org and moral from experience? Hell yeah, great Idea, special forces already have more org/morale. I also think Experience should boost a unit both in defense and offense.

 

[peo]

Johan has afaik already said that there will be no national units in that way.

 

[Amallric]

Well I'm against that idea, special forces would rather be paratroopers or mountain divisions while troops you call "national units" should'nt have a particular org/moral bonus. In the sovietic army Guards unit weren't so different from the normal ones, they just got better equipement and sometimes more men. So for instance a normal tank brigade was equipped with T-34 while the Heavy tanks Joseph Stalin were given to Guards Armored brigades. The self-propelled rocket artillery units were called "Guards Mortar brigades". So if you want guards just build a SP-ART brigade and call it Guards Mortar division, and so on. Then if you want that these units gain more experience it will be your task you can put them as the spearhead of an offensive, give them offensive supply and so on.

With Waffen SS, same thing. I understand that some people like to think that they were true übersoldiers but in the reality they were just as good as normal infantry divisions in 39. Then they were given the most advanced armor and equipement(lots of tanks basically) and that made them to "firemen of the front".

 

[unmerged(56754)]

Not this whole elite thing again ...

Waffen SS were on the whole rubbish in battle.

No elite units for any nations becuase simply, 'elite' national units didn't exist. There was a massive thread arguing over this ...

(But for Britain it would either be the Guards Divisions, or Ghurkas, but I don't want certain divisions to have better stats over others for the sole reason of their name. It just didn't happen, look for 10 minutes about Waffen SS battle statistics, they were pants compared to their false reputation.

These units should exist, but in name only, much like history.

 

[koontz]

More org and moral from experience? Hell yeah, great Idea, special forces already have more org/morale. I also think Experience should boost a unit both in defense and offense.

Yes i really think so. anybody else like that idea? (lets skip national units disscution)

 

[Zaku]

Yes i really think so. anybody else like that idea? (lets skip national units disscution)

This is already in HOI2, a div with 50% EXP gets a bonus of 50% to its attack and defence. I think hoi3 will have something similar.

 

[koontz]

More org and moral from experience? Hell yeah, great Idea, special forces already have more org/morale. I also think Experience should boost a unit both in defense and offense.

Thats was it I answerd to.

 

[volksmarschall]

I agree with more experience should have more organization as well as their bonuses of attack and defence, etc.

Organization is a key factor in the HoI games and elite units should be better organized than in-experienced and newer units in my opinion.

 

[Zaku]

Thats was it I answerd to.

And I answered, that it is already in hoi2, more defense = more organisation. As for morale, I don't think a veteran soldier has more will to fight than a recruit. He just knows when to retreat, and when to hold his ground.

 

[Alex_brunius]

And I answered, that it is already in hoi2, more defense = more organisation. As for morale, I don't think a veteran soldier has more will to fight than a recruit. He just knows when to retreat, and when to hold his ground.

In HoI2 Morale is just how quickly you recover your organization. One of the first lessons the inexperienced Armerican soldiers learned the hard way in North africa was how quickly the German soldiers could set up new defenses (regain org) after a retreat. While the American troops where Idle the Germans where busy laying out minefields exc, things that just happend automatically since everyone knew the drill and they didnt have to wait around for orders from the very top. Think of it as a more experienced organization simply running more smoothly.

The other option to simulate this is to allow experience to quicken digging in time, But I think org and morale are more general things, Useful to represent all kinds of things.

 

[unmerged(44926)]

And I answered, that it is already in hoi2, more defense = more organisation. As for morale, I don't think a veteran soldier has more will to fight than a recruit. He just knows when to retreat, and when to hold his ground.

And accounts suggest that that level of experience was reached very quickly, after which there was very little difference in regular divisions between ones with some combat experience and ones with tons of combat experience. Before long extra experience tended to be cancelled out by fatigue and stress. The Allies noticed in Western Europe in '44-'45 that units which had only been in action for a couple months generally performed as well or better than units which had been engaged for several years prior in North Africa or Italy.

 

[koontz]

Not this whole elite thing again ...

Waffen SS were on the whole rubbish in battle.

No elite units for any nations becuase simply, 'elite' national units didn't exist. There was a massive thread arguing over this ...

(But for Britain it would either be the Guards Divisions, or Ghurkas, but I don't want certain divisions to have better stats over others for the sole reason of their name. It just didn't happen, look for 10 minutes about Waffen SS battle statistics, they were pants compared to their false reputation.

These units should exist, but in name only, much like history.

Well imo i think 1/3 was kind of elite/fanatics...well but maybe this is the wrong forum to talk about it.

 

[von Sachsen]

All of that said, there should be a way to detirmein the level of training your troops get. Though the simplest way might be to fix the draft/proffessional slider and let it be changed more often.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

Well imo i think 1/3 was kind of elite/fanatics...well but maybe this is the wrong forum to talk about it.

Being a political fanatic does not necessarily make one a better soldier.

In some situations, it would actually make for worse soldiers (as the disproportionate casualty figures of Waffen SS units show).

 

[out]

All of that said, there should be a way to detirmein the level of training your troops get. Though the simplest way might be to fix the draft/proffessional slider and let it be changed more often.

I think that would make a much better fix. I wouldn't mind having more detailed options when it comes to troop recruitment, things from recruitment age, training time, leave time, etc. These things make a pretty big impact in the long run. It's also rather ridiculous that in HoI, China vs Japan, Russia vs Germany on the whole churn out soldiers of almost the same quality.

But I think this will be partially improved by the new leadership system. Well I hope anyway.

 

[koontz]

Being a political fanatic does not necessarily make one a better soldier.

In some situations, it would actually make for worse soldiers (as the disproportionate casualty figures of Waffen SS units show).

no but i think like the guards, gurkhas & waffen adds a flavor to the game, all the mods have implemented them so.... but hey its just my 50 cent

 

[out]

no but i think like the guards, gurkhas & waffen adds a flavor to the game, all the mods have implemented them so.... but hey its just my 50 cent

If all you want is flavour, then just rename the bloody divisions.

On the other hand, I think the game in sore in need of jungle troops. Either that or make marine/bergsjaeger a whole lot better in jungle. Marine, mountain and paratroopers are supposed to be the elite in HoI2. But on the whole I think they are too weak compared to vanilla infantry.

 

[peo]

If all you want is flavour, then just rename the bloody divisions.

On the other hand, I think the game in sore in need of jungle troops. Either that or make marine/bergsjaeger a whole lot better in jungle. Marine, mountain and paratroopers are supposed to be the elite in HoI2. But on the whole I think they are too weak compared to vanilla infantry.

They should be weaker. A mountain infantry unit lacks heavy support to be able to fight in the mountains so on level ground they are outgunned severely.
Paratroopers and Marines even more so.
What they might be too low on is org and morale, not the other stats quite simply since a units fighting strength isn't dependant mainly on the soldiers themselves but the collection of soldiers, equipment and support they can bring to the battle.