Expel Minorities - Changes

Expel Minorities - Changes

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Lightwell

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What if the chance for a province to have a certain culture was tied to its share in your country? Like, if 5% of your nation is Portuguese, you have a 5% chance of your colonies in the Americas being Portuguese.
 

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If we ever do an EU5, and I work on it, I definitely want pops. I personally prefer the Imperator ones over the V2, as its easier for abstraction, especially when you got vague data.

I'm glad to hear EU5 will have pops! From what I've seen I like the Vicky model a lot more than the Imp model. I like pop systems where the player lacks direct control of population movements, and I feel like in Imp the player is given of much power to change all pops to his nation's culture and religion.

You might as well remove the feature as the changes make it completely useless. So, my understanding you can't remove a feature cause was part of a DLC, but you can make it useless, that won't affect your initial idea... That's ridiculous on my opinion.
I'm against the change on the mechanic, on my opinion was one of the very few things included in the DLC that i used.

It is ahistorical? Yes, but then again so many other stuff on EU4 is.
Does it remove any traces of wrong culture country's? Yes, but so does the change culture button, should we remove that too?

The problem was never this mechanic, was, in my opinion, a completely outdated colony system that needed a major update. (And the big opportunity to do it was GC)

I'm very disappointed with the decision.

I honestly think the 'change culture' button should be removed.
 
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Ruian

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@Johan any chance to take another look at this?

Expel can give a bonus to missionary strength for 25 years and reduce development, giving extra development to a colonized province which will be the primary culture and religion of the expeller. CNs can have some kind of flag where they will convert only primitive/pagan religious groups (Nahuatl, Mayan, Inti, Animist, Totemist, Tengri). They should really be culture converting native culture groups as well afterwards. Maybe a flag that includes x, y, z culture groups -> convert culture if in this set of groups. Even just an event that flips all of Mexico to Mexican culture would work just fine (once all of it is owned by a CN and converted to a non-pagan group).

I think that would satisfy most people. There's a reason to do it still but it fixes the ugly New World and allows the Old World to keep its cultures intact.
 

C.N.

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So, what about Exploration ideas? Will the Free Colonies expel minorities cost reduction be replaced with something more useful now?
 

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@Johan any chance to take another look at this?

Expel can give a bonus to missionary strength for 25 years and reduce development, giving extra development to a colonized province which will be the primary culture and religion of the expeller. CNs can have some kind of flag where they will convert only primitive/pagan religious groups (Nahuatl, Mayan, Inti, Animist, Totemist, Tengri). They should really be culture converting native culture groups as well afterwards. Maybe a flag that includes x, y, z culture groups -> convert culture if in this set of groups. Even just an event that flips all of Mexico to Mexican culture would work just fine (once all of it is owned by a CN and converted to a non-pagan group).

I think that would satisfy most people. There's a reason to do it still but it fixes the ugly New World and allows the Old World to keep its cultures intact.

Religious conversion YES. Cultural conversion NO.

Contrary of what many people seems to believe, most of the historical cultural conversion (beyond conversion to sincretic catholicism) of native americans on Hispanoamerica was did after the independence of the colonies. At 1821 60% of Mexico population didnt even speak spanish. Even after all the war and disease most spanish colonial territories was majoritarily native (or african on some areas).

The spaniards did good use of the "Repúblicas de Indios" as a legal option to win the favor or native nobility/caciques, protecting in some degree their ancestral territories and any tradition that did not conflicted with catholicism.

On game this "Repúblicas de Indios" should be an unique spanish colonial estate that would help to manage huge numbers of cultures on your provinces, because is what they did historically. Keep the native majority kind of loyal to spanish government. Even with the mortality of the missions and their forced relocation of natives on "Reducciones" , the missions played their role on keep off spanish (laic) colonist on some areas of the Americas.

The colonial areas that turned hispanic were the ones with few hunter-gatherer natives and colonized by european immigrants (like North and Northeastern Mexico) and the fast growing urban cores (like Mexico City, Puebla, Guadalajara, Veracruz, Acapulco, Guanajuato or Zacatecas). On the former case the game already represent this just by colonizing an "empty" province, for the latter case, events linked to trade and development could do this work.
 
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Ruian

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Religious conversion YES. Cultural conversion NO.

Contrary of what many people seems to believe, most of the historical cultural conversion (beyond conversion to sincretic catholicism) of native americans on Hispanoamerica was did after the independence of the colonies. At 1821 60% of Mexico population didnt even speak spanish. Even after all the war and disease most spanish colonial territories was majoritarily native (or african on some areas).

The spaniards did good use of the "Repúblicas de Indios" as a legal option to win the favor or native nobility/caciques, protecting in some degree their ancestral territories and any tradition that did not conflicted with catholicism.

On game this "Repúblicas de Indios" should be an unique spanish colonial estate that would help to manage huge numbers of cultures on your provinces, because is what they did historically. Keep the native majority kind of loyal to spanish government. Even with the mortality of the missions and their forced relocation of natives on "Reducciones" , the missions played their role on keep off spanish (laic) colonist on some areas of the Americas.

The colonial areas that turned hispanic were the ones with few hunter-gatherer natives and colonized by european immigrants (like North and Northeastern Mexico) and the fast growing urban cores (like Mexico City, Puebla, Guadalajara, Veracruz, Acapulco, Guanajuato or Zacatecas). On the former case the game already represent this just by colonizing an "empty" province, for the latter case, events linked to trade and development could do this work.
Okay, but in the game Europa Universalis 4 these culture groups keep their cores on the land and revolt every 10 years for the entire game unless you leave an army there. If the cores disappear they can have Japanese culture for all I care. It wouldn't be such a huge problem if there were only 5 or 6 tags in Mexico. But there are like 20. That's 20 different separatist groups rising up constantly.
 

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I honestly think the 'change culture' button should be removed.
With a simple WC/One Faith being so trivial, what would be there left of the game, then?
 

Oldpara

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Hmm.. It might be the worst change proposal ever :)

- lower your development
- don't change culture/religion for desired
- lock your colonist
- mess with Colonial nation culture/religion

What? So what's the point? What's the benefit?

I rarely used this mechanism before, but after proposed changes it become just total garbage :)
 

ABK

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Hmm.. It might be the worst change proposal ever :)

- lower your development
- don't change culture/religion for desired
- lock your colonist
- mess with Colonial nation culture/religion

What? So what's the point? What's the benefit?

I rarely used this mechanism before, but after proposed changes it become just total garbage :)
Well if it would be in game now i kinda agree with yuo but the new goverment capacity sistem is coming and with it the mechanics that lower yuor dev can be actually usefull. Still though the expell minority is not good to begin with and those changes will not make it much better.
 

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I want to say that it is great that you post small updates/thoughts/experiments like this. It really is appreciated
 

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Okay, but in the game Europa Universalis 4 these culture groups keep their cores on the land and revolt every 10 years for the entire game unless you leave an army there. If the cores disappear they can have Japanese culture for all I care. It wouldn't be such a huge problem if there were only 5 or 6 tags in Mexico. But there are like 20. That's 20 different separatist groups rising up constantly.
Why are they rising up in your games? In my games my colonies almost never have enough unrest for an uprising after the separatism is gone.
 

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If we ever do an EU5, and I work on it, I definitely want pops. I personally prefer the Imperator ones over the V2, as its easier for abstraction, especially when you got vague data.

Never understood why people love pops so much. I guess you have to be a vicky 2 fan boy to like them... :confused:
 

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Never understood why people love pops so much. I guess you have to be a vicky 2 fan boy to like them... :confused:

An economy that models supply and demand (at least at the basic level) would be one major reason why.
 
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Lightwell

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An economy that models supply and demand (at least at the basic level) would be one major reason why.

If EU5 uses S&D, will we need to change the MR's "Goods Produced" modifier to something else?
 

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Never understood why people love pops so much. I guess you have to be a vicky 2 fan boy to like them... :confused:
My reason is that that way wars actually have direct impact in damaging your demographics, as there's no virtual manpower pool and troops are to drafted directly from populace. Makes you think twice before starting *any* war, much less going for a WC spree.
 
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Aretii

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Glad to hear about POPs and expelling being changed.

That said it appears to me that you are not sure how to make it interesting and cannot remove it so you decided to make it irrelevant.

Oh well.
I mean, "turning it into an incredibly niche mechanic the AI will almost never use" is better than the current state of affairs where the AI uses it all the time and turns the cultural/religion mode into a completely insane mess. RPing players might use it, I guess.

As the person who made the "Expel Minorities has my permission to die" thread, I think that this is probably a reasonable compromise of the competing needs Paradox has.
 

iClipse

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Well, the mechanic is now so niche, why not remove it all together? Why lower your own development to transfer it to your subject for no other benefit? Well, you save one ducat a month, that's true.

Maybe if it'd increased growth speed of the Colony it could be worth it?

Will the exploration idea be changes accordingly? Maybe the + settler % again? I'd much rather have that.

Anyway, don't take this as criticism, I fully applaud your stance and am happy you're changing this controversial mechanic.
 

cetvrtak

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This is all under test, and numbers and stuff will probably change during the next few months..

Expelling minorities will changed in the following way.
- It will no longer change religion and culture of the origin.
- It will reduce the development in the origin by the same amount of development it increases the colony with.
- Colonial Maintenance at default is the same for it, but there are ways to make expelling minorities practically free monetarily.
- There is no longer a power cost associcated with expelling minorities.
How about merging culture conversion and expel minorities?

When changing culture, you could use your free colonist to do it instantly (still at the culture conversion cost).