I'm certain that the international volunteers don't belong to any country, and they spawn via event. We probably didn't see them because they did not join (in force) SCW immediately.
Expeditionary/Volunteer forces!
- Thread starter FOARP
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I'm certain that the international volunteers don't belong to any country, and they spawn via event. We probably didn't see them because they did not join (in force) SCW immediately.
Yeah it definitely should be restricted taking into account several parameters, but I don't find Japan's intervention silly enough to be unavailable.
Japan did have an interest in the area, the strongest fascism/Axis was in Europe the less power the allies would have to intervene in Japan's theater of war, and ideologies are just tools to manipulate people into the same agenda's, population control, which became clear during world war 2, and honestly the opinion of the Japanese population didn't really mattered at that point, not only that, volunteers are volunteers, not a direct intervention. Farming XP is more like an extra to intervene, not really a reason intervene so on that I would agree with you.
But in the end it should be available and up to the player to decide if it should allow or not volunteers to go, of course with restrictions.
But in 1936 Japan was not yet allied with fascism. And there was a certain possibility that Germany would side with China. So no, Japan has no motives to help the fascists.
I agree that it is possible to easily manipulate the population, specially on WWII period. But, from my point of view, said manipulation should cost PP.
Not only that, since it's a war that it's hardly justified, and it's not a war regarding a past claim, a big part of the military would have to be convinced (hence investing more PP), since they would think that this plans could delay other more important plans (like China). To exemplify, the German Army "fought" against Hitler about SCW intervention, and didn't allowed him to deploy front line divisions.
Of course, of course. But I believe said restrictions need to be higher. And they must have consequences. If you spend three months proclaiming speeches and having constantly meetings to force your views in one matter, you can't really focus on pressing other matters as well (because your audience will not be focused on your message). All this means that a high degree of interventionism should delay other measures that you want to fulfill as well.
- 2
Why draw an imprecise comparison to another case that has it's own ideosyncracies? I dont believe the British Russian diplomacy in 1905 has the slightest bit of relevance to the question of if Britain would allow huge numbers of Japanese troops to sail through Suez to fight spain in 1936 and maintain regular convoys for months.
- 2
With the Expeditionary force mechanic dont you have to be allied or in a war together with that nation to send expeditionary troops? So expeditionary troops will be controlled by the target nation but volunteers only by you?
From today's DD:
And you don't have to be in a war together with your ally to send volunteers.
It sometimes baffles me to the extent some people are defending every strange thing in this game, no matter what. I mean, Japan sending ENTIRE divisions? Even a battalion would be bizarre, but 4 ENTIRE divisions? And Germany is not sending volunteers, they are also sending ENTIRE divisions into the war...
Sending exp forces to your ally in a world war is another story, then I would find it sane to send ENTIRE divisions, but not as volunteers, and not Japan sending ENTIRE divisions (troops at all) to Europe... Holy crap, this is such a bad idea and if this is supposed to be historical, I really can't imagine how bad the non historical version will be.
Sending exp forces to your ally in a world war is another story, then I would find it sane to send ENTIRE divisions, but not as volunteers, and not Japan sending ENTIRE divisions (troops at all) to Europe... Holy crap, this is such a bad idea and if this is supposed to be historical, I really can't imagine how bad the non historical version will be.
- 4
FOARP, I've always respected you because you generally get China right....
Here is a list of everything wrong with Japanese intervention in Spain.
1. Europeans and the Spanish would never allow it.
Division level intervention by Japan in the European theater would not be tolerated. The Nationalists in Spain were somewhat fascist but mostly Catholic. A mostly Catholic uprising has no problem with two batallions of German Christians or 4 divisions of Italian Catholics is fine. 4 divisions of Japanese buddhists/shintoists fighting on behalf of a Catholic conservative movement would not work. The Republicans got in enough trouble by being labelled as stooges of the Soviets. Japan It would risk discrediting the Nationalist credentials.
2. Fighting effectiveness would be a lot lower than a "Japanese division"
Outside supplies were important in SCW because both sides were scraping the bottom of the barrel when it came to guns, ammunition, uniforms etc. They could not supply themselves adequately much less large foreign formations.
3. Supply would be impossible.
In the case of the other European countries, they all had a reason to be sending ships to Spain. They'd always traded with Spain. They weren't circumventing the blockade, they were sending food and clothing and clocks... whatever goods they traded before.
Japan did not have a massive amount of bilateral trade with Spain in 1935. Certainly not enough to camouflage large arms shipments.
That even goes to the idea that they could send large arms shipments, which they couldn't. Japan cannot sail past Singapore, Suez, and Gibraltar to help Spain.
From the DD we know that it takes 2 weeks to deploy into or out of a civil war. Wow... You can sail 80,000 troops around the world in 2 weeks. Realism right there.
Japan has no experience in 1936 of running a vast overseas empire or su
- 4
- 1
I still find it funny that some people here think that somehow magically, supplying 40K people in Spain is an impossible task. Yeah, because Japan didn't have millions of soldiers fighting overseas during the war. /s
I still don't see any good reason why the Jap AI shouldn't send support to the SCW. Its a logical thing to do. (or any right wing country for that matter)
The 4 divisions are a bit much yes, but again this brings us to the fact that the game is in beta, so the numbers are not right. The basic mechanism is fine imo.
I still don't see any good reason why the Jap AI shouldn't send support to the SCW. Its a logical thing to do. (or any right wing country for that matter)
The 4 divisions are a bit much yes, but again this brings us to the fact that the game is in beta, so the numbers are not right. The basic mechanism is fine imo.
- 3
- 3
Japan had soldiers fighting overseas in China, SE Asia and the Pacific.
All of which are close to Japan.
Even then, Japanese troops were never "well supplied."
The distance to Spain is far, far longer and the local resources to support Japanese troops are insufficient.
The cost of shipping the necessary munitions to Spain would be prohibitive and not something that Japan would ever do.
- 4
What about when an other overseas empire Britain were supplying their troops in Burma? They could supply them, and India had even worse infrastructure then Spain. Most of the equipment came from overseas. (I think India didn't have much weapons industry.)
Then somehow Japan is unable to do the same with a far smaller contingent? I still don't see it.
- 3
In India, the Indians had a small arms + munitions industry that had been specifically built to be compatible with British weaponry. The artillery pieces and trucks had to be shipped in from outside, but all of the ammunition, uniforms, food, soldiers etc. could be produced locally. The British set up the Empire to work that way where the only inputs required from the UK for overseas forces were British personnel and heavy equipment.
The two divisions they had in Burma at the beginning of the Burma campaign were the first Burma division and the 17th Indian Infantry division. Both of those formations were composed primarily of Indian troops with British officers.
For Japan in Spain, they can't get local reinforcements or local ammunition (the one Nationalist arsenal was in Oviedo and it struggled to fulfill the requirements of the regular Nationalist formations, much less supply well armed foreigners with different weapons). They won't know how to work with the Spanish, (Spain and Japan didn't have a history of close relations or civilian to civilian contacts).
I would also say that the fuel requirements of maintaining a long convoy would eat into Japanese fuel stockpiling and hurt the navy...
But then apparently naval vessels no longer use fuel.
- 3
The difference in the level of merchant shipping and the network of bases and support infrastructure for the British Empire vs the Japanese is night and day - you really can't compare the two. Britain had bases all the way to (and past) Burma. Japan's nearest base to Spain is in the central Pacific.
Edit: And Britain's merchant shipping tonnage dwarfed Japan's as well.
- 3
Same goes with Spain. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, the japanese used the same cartridges as the germans and the italians supplied to the SCW.
There were more then 1 million commonwealth soldiers in Burma later. Most of them were indian, but most of the equipment were shipped from the UK.
Local reinforcements were not available, but the rest was(apart from the heavy equipment). Italy lost around 6000 men during the SCW from 75000, so if we use these numbers the Japan navy would have to reinforce around 3-4K men during the war. That's like 3 ships full of men? 4?
As I said before, I never doubt that this would be an expensive mission for japan, but it's still possible and plausible.
- 1
- 1
Yeah, but we are talking about 40K men here, and not a million like the brits had. If Japan supplied 300.000 troops to the SCW then maybe you would have a point here.
I'm 100% sure the japan merchant navy is capable to supply 40k men.
- 1
Forgot to reply to this.
Yep, you are right, and that's why you get a raise to the world tension when you intervene in a civil war. It's modelled in the game already, the numbers need balancing during the beta.
- 1
Why? Why would the Japanese merchant navy want to be diverted to help Nationalist Spain?
The Germans and the Italians shipped in their own ammunition, they didn't draw upon Spanish stockpiles if they could help it. That's not even mentioning things like artillery rounds, mortars and AT rounds which are not compatible with what the Spanish had.
In Burma, there wasn't a million commonwealth soldiers. In 1944, the British had 9 divisions and 2 brigades. That would expand to 12 divisions and 4 brigades at the end of 1944. But it was not a million. Furthermore, the only British division in theater was the 2nd division. The rest were Indian Army divisions and 2 African Divisions. The counter invasion was supplied from India overland and from India over the sea and it took 3 years to put it together by a country who was fighting on their own territory and has 200 years of practice fighting on the other side of the earth. Anyone who has studied the Burma campaigns knows that supplying an offensive of even a few divisions on the other side of the world is very, very difficult.
Possible... yes... I guess. Plausible? no not at all. Sending some supplies... that's plausible... sending 4 divisions to engage in high tempo operations in Spain... no.
- 3
Possible? Maybe. The restraint here is supply, and maaaaybe it could be done (at an incredible cost).
Plausible? Not at all. Diplomatically, militarilly and even culturally makes no sense. Porkman developed it quite well.
So while I agree that it should be possible, I think the systems needs to represent it's downsides, in order that we NEVER see this in a game, unless it's multiplayer.
Edit: ninja'ed by Porkman :O
- 2
You left out the lack of Japanese bases. That said, with enough expenditure they could probably just pull it off, but it would be a 'Falkands War' or above like effort for Japan - it would be Japan mobilising a significant portion of its merchant marine, it'd have Japan on newspapers all around the world as it spends oodles of money to send 4 divisions to a civil war in Spain, not to mention a good deal of its oil supplies (noting I'm talking IRL hypothetical here, not in game clearly) to support a bunch of conservative Europeans that it has no ties with. As I mentioned before, I'm personally less worried about Japan sending four divisions as the pace of combat, because the civil war was won by the nationalists historically, so it's not as if the Japanese intervention is going to create some kind of ahistorical result - but - and it is a huge 'but' for immersion, it is just a tad ridiculous.
- 2