Expeditionary/Volunteer forces!

[keynes2.0]

Who talks about invading?
We are talking about "volunteers".

Volunteers who bring half the Japanese navy with them as they constantly send convoys back and forth across half the earth? Italy was able to send so many volunteers because they controlled a large part of the Spanish coast blockade and could conveniently look the other way. Japan wouldn't have that option.

 

[Zaku]

That's completely false. Both sides lacked completely weapons and ammo, even small arms. The Loyalists received supplies from France (not much) and the Russians, while the Rebels from the Italians and Germans.

And fuel? Since when Spain produces fuel?

I never said it was produced, but it was available.

Ammo:
Japan used the 98k rifle in limited numbers for example. The 7.92 mauser was a common ammo in Europe. Also there is the type 30 which used 6.5mm manlicher, also a quite common cartridge.(both were also used by the Spanish Fascist) Same goes with machine gun ammo.
Both were supplied by Italy or Germany to Spain.

Food:
Feeding 40K men is not a huge deal considering the population of Spain.

Fuel:
Again, they are infantry divsions. Spain got enough fuel to operate the condor legion and the italian tanks/airplanes, and 4 inf divs don't consume as much fuel as them.

As I said, only replacements for heavy equipment and ammo for artillery are needed.

 

[Zaku]

Volunteers who bring half the Japanese navy with them as they constantly send convoys back and forth across half the earth?

Yes.
Just like the italians did.
Even the German navy sent warships to the area.

 

[keynes2.0]

Yes
Just like the italians did.

Italy sent 4 divisions. Italy was far closer. Italy was one of the nations doing the blockade. Italy was white people (which matters given the racism of the times). Italy didn't need to repeatedly enter British waters to reach Spain.

 

[Zaku]

Italy sent 4 divisions. Italy was far closer. Italy was one of the nations doing the blockade. Italy was white people (which matters given the racism of the times). Italy didn't need to repeatedly enter British waters to reach Spain.

You seriously think that the UK had gone to war against Japan over supplying a fascist uprising in Spain? Most they would do is to close down the Med, but then Japan's ships would go the longer route.

Remember that I'm not even talking about real world, I'm talking about the option in a game.
I think it's perfectly plausible that the Japanese support a fascist uprising in Europe to weaken the Allies position.

 

[keynes2.0]

You seriously think that the UK had gone to war against Japan over supplying a fascist uprising in Spain?

No? Did I say they would?

Most they would do is to close down the Med, but then Japan's ships would go the longer route.

Ah yes, making good use of that vast fleet of Japanese cargo ships that can make a 30,000 mile round trip (there being no fuel in Spain they can use) without refueling.

 

[FOARP]

I have to agree with @Zaku here - you haven't actually given a solid reason why Japanese volunteers would be so out there as to be unacceptable when we know that historically large numbers of Germans and Italians fought in Spain. Now, I can see why this should be unlikely (Japan should be more concerned about things going on closer to home and not really interested in Europe) but it's hardly as though Japanese forces in Europe is an impossibility. Japan deployed a squadron of war ships to the Mediterranean in WW1, and the Allies wanted her to deploy an army corps to Europe as well.

Ah yes, making good use of that vast fleet of Japanese cargo ships that can make a 30,000 mile round trip (there being no fuel in Spain they can use) without refueling.

Plenty of neutral ports where they could refuel on the way, or refuel at sea from other ships.

 

[Zaku]

No? Did I say they would?

Then I don't understand your point.
Remember Ethiopia? Italy supplied a far larger force in an agressive war, and the UK didn't close the canal. Why would they do it against Japan? But even if they did, they could go around Africa which brings us to:

Ah yes, making good use of that vast fleet of Japanese cargo ships that can make a 30,000 mile round trip (there being no fuel in Spain they can use) without refueling.

Do you think that no Japanese merchant ship did this trip at the time? They traded with Europe and the African colonies before the war. There were plenty of neutral ports in the area to refuel.

 

[agus92]

Physically moving the equipment there once would be simple enough. Keeping a constant flow of supplies to keep the troops in the field would be challenging but doable. But how are you going to do this with the vaguest pretense of secrecy? These Japanese ships would need to be sailing back and forth through the Suez canal for months. The British would be entirely within their rights to impound the traffic if the Japanese are openly launching an invasion of Spain.

I have to agree with @Zaku here - you haven't actually given a solid reason why Japanese volunteers would be so out there as to be unacceptable when we know that historically large numbers of Germans and Italians fought in Spain. Now, I can see why this should be unlikely (Japan should be more concerned about things going on closer to home and not really interested in Europe) but it's hardly as though Japanese forces in Europe is an impossibility. Japan deployed a squadron of war ships to the Mediterranean in WW1, and the Allies wanted her to deploy an army corps to Europe as well.



Plenty of neutral ports where they could refuel on the way, or refuel at sea from other ships.

Realistically, Japan could not have even maintained more than one division in Pearl Harbor (it has been discussed to death in the forum).

And even if it was doable, it would be a huge effort for a really little gain. Italy spent 15 to 20% of their annual income during the SCW, and Ger spent 245 M$ ('39 prices). Now add the cost of operating a large supply route for three years.

 

[Zaku]

Realistically, Japan could not have even maintained more than one division in Pearl Harbor (it has been discussed to death in the forum).

Yeah but that's because the US and the UK navy was in war against them. This was not the case in 1936. Japan operated millions of soldiers overseas supplying 40K men is nothing compared to that, even if you consider the distance.

 

[keynes2.0]

Then I don't understand your point.
Remember Ethiopia? Italy supplied a far larger force in an agressive war, and the UK didn't close the canal. Why would they do it against Japan? But even if they did, they could go around Africa which brings us to:

1) Britain was not party to a non-intervention pact regarding Ethiopia
2) Italian ships were travelling to an Italian colony that Britain had long since acknowledged
3) That was white people shooting brown people not yellow people shooting white people

 

[Zaku]

1) Britain was not party to a non-intervention pact regarding Ethiopia
2) Italian ships were travelling to an Italian colony that Britain had long since acknowledged
3) That was white people shooting brown people not yellow people shooting white people

1. You mean the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-intervention_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War? Since Germany, Italy, and the USSR were also the members of this pact, I would say it didn't have any authority at all.
2. But still, the UK did nothing. They didn't want to risk a war versus Italy and Japan was far stronger then Italy. Closing down the Suez canal is a pretty big **** you to a neutral party(like Japan was in 36).
3. I won't even comment on this one. You should delete it, because otherwise the thread will be closed.

 

[FOARP]

1) Britain was not party to a non-intervention pact regarding Ethiopia
2) Italian ships were travelling to an Italian colony that Britain had long since acknowledged
3) That was white people shooting brown people not yellow people shooting white people

Russia also managed to get their entire fleet all the way from the Baltic to Japan round Cape Horn in 1904/5, despite Russia being hostile to the UK, who were allied with Japan.

I believe you'll find that:

1) Britain was allied with Japan, but this didn't stop the Russia transit.
2) Russian ships were travelling to a war zone, and (in a case of mistaken identity) attacked British shipping on the way.
3) This was a war between countries where the majority of one country was European, and the other East Asian in ethnicity.

@Zaku 's point about Ethiopia is also worth considering - the UK considered closing the Suez Canal to Italian shipping but in the end did not, not out of sympathy to Italy, but to avoid war. There's no reason to believe it would have been different with fascist traffic going the other way.

Again, this is not to argue that Japanese assistance to the Nationalists in Spain was likely, this is to say there is no logical reason why it could not possibly have been done.

 

[agus92]

Yeah but that's because the US and the UK navy was in war against them. This was not the case in 1936. Japan operated millions of soldiers overseas supplying 40K men is nothing compared to that, even if you consider the distance.

Meh, point taken.

Still, a huge effort for little gain (realistically), so in the end that needs to be factored in.

 

[FOARP]

Meh, point taken.

Still, a huge effort for little gain (realistically), so in the end that needs to be factored in.

Which is why this is an AI/game balance-type issue rather than a game-mechanics issue. It's unlikely, not impossible.

 

[Zaku]

Still, a huge effort for little gain (realistically), so in the end that needs to be factored in.

I'm not arguing that one, I just think it's somewhat plausible. I agree with FOARP

Which is why this is an AI/game balance-type issue rather than a game-mechanics issue. It's unlikely, not impossible.

 

[agus92]

Which is why this is an AI/game balance-type issue rather than a game-mechanics issue. It's unlikely, not impossible.

I agree. I remain really skeptical about the logistics though. After reading Churchill's memoirs I've become obsessed with logistics and the nightmare of overseas operations, and this venture does not appeal easy to me. I believe the whole game is easy on the logistical side (I am extrapolating from HoI3 here), but that's an issue of another level.

 

[jamesd]

I saw a cap of two divisions - he couldn't send more.

It was a complex situation, however, in game terms the deploying of volunteers to an civil war is the more accurate model since the fighting was restricted to the Korea peninsula. In the game, if one country was at war with another, it would be a general war.

Yes I went back and looked at it and there was a cap of 2, based on the number of divisions Germany had at that time, so if the SCW broke out in 1938 when Germany had 4 times as many divisions they could have sent 8? I also read the DD and it said democracies can't send volunteers, meaning the Republicans can't get the international volunteer brigades, who outnumbered the Germans.

I think the following types of aid should be possible:
volunteers who are added to the manpower pool so that new units can be formed - no impact on broader international relations/world tension and the sending country gains land experience based on number sent. There should be limitations based on world tension and government type so that dictatorships can send more.

equipment added to pools so that new units can be formed - small impact on international relations/world tension. Combined with the info from the DD about lend lease, the equipment sent would earn experience points as it was used. Again quantities would be limited by government type and world tension.

formed units - bigger impact on international relations/world tension that rises as commitment rises

Under this sort of system many European/Western countries would send some volunteers to Spain to get land experience and arms would flow, primarily from non-democracies. The Germans however may be reluctant to send actual divisions due to the impact on world tension and Germany not yet being ready for war. However Italy sending a few divisions may not raise tension that much as it was already somewhat of a pariah due to its conquest of Ethiopia. As more nations send arms and divisions to a civil war, world tension increases allowing more to come from more nations and there is the potential that a civil war could explode into a war between nations if participants are not careful.

 

[SpartanV15]

Expeditionary forces are your guys under command of the guys you're giving it to them. Volunteers are people you get to control as seen in the video and expeditionary forces are just divisions you lend to the country in question.

In regards to the controlling of volunteers, I think it would be better to have both the option to control your volunteers or have the AI control them so basically players choice on what they want. So a historical example lets take the Blue Division which was a volunteer force. The division was under the command structure of the Wehrmacht rather than the Spanish Army, so translating that into the game perspective shouldn't the AI control that volunteer division?

On a side note i would personally like to see historical volunteer force events trigger .

 

[Axe99]

Russia also managed to get their entire fleet all the way from the Baltic to Japan round Cape Horn in 1904/5, despite Russia being hostile to the UK, who were allied with Japan.

There's a big difference between a one-way transit around the world (don't forget the Russians ended in a Russian port) and supplying a four-division sized expeditionary force half-way around the world, particularly given the limited capacity of Nationalist Spain to supply it's own troops, let alone foreigners.

That said, I don't think there's anything in-principle wrong with them being there, although it is a dash odd (I'm a bit weary this morning, but I can't think of a plausible reason why Japan would send four divs to Spain), and given that the volunteers are likely to be there in small numbers, I can cope with overlooking the supply issue as long as the relative force levels end up sensibly balanced (ie, it's not a three-month Fascist smack-down every time). I think the main issue I had with the SCW was the pace of combat (which could be an issue with the whole game).